Douglas Hamp

02/07/13 According to the Scriptures Radio with Guest Rob Skiba

Firstly my apologies for the delay in this weeks archive ive been without power for 3 days due to the blizzard, thanks Rick

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Peter Pellerin

Hi Doug,

I happened to come across this when I was using Tony Garland’s commentary on Revelation.

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/topics/marriage.html#4.10

This is an in scholarly look at the bride of Christ and it goes into Hosea, Isaiah 54, Isaiah 62, Rev 19, Rev 21, along with the passages I mentioned.

I lean in the direction that Tony argues for. I think that it explains all of the verses concerning the bride.

Blessings,
Peter
Jim Schilleci

I was surprised that Rob did not think the Holy spirit is a person. The JW’s and other cults agree with him. But what do you do about all the scriptures in the NT that ascribe personhood to Him. Acts 5:3 says they lied to the Holy Spirit. Acts 5:4 says they lied to God. Eph 4:30 says grieve not the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:26 ays the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us. 1Tim 4:1 says the Spirit speaks in later times some shall depart from the faith. 2 cor 13:14 gives a benediction in the Father, Son and Spirit , as well as Matt 28:20. I heard you say that you thin preterism is almost heresy. I would argue denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit is also heresy. I love your shows and got your book on Corrupting the Image. It bothered me to hear Rob talking as he did about the Holy Spirit. I do not agree with him, and hope you do not also. Blessings from our Lord! Jim
- pete
  
  Jim,
  
  I share the same sentiments. As their discussion delved into God breathing the ‘Holy Spirit’ into Adam, and comparing that too Jesus breathing the Holy Spirit into the disciples, I think Doug that you and Rob are missing the point here. The Holy Spirit is a Person is (for lack of a better analogy) the acting agent upon which a new creation occurs. Gen 1:2, Luke 1:35, John 3:5, Acts 2:1-4, 1 Cor 12:13, etc. Then there is all the references by Jesus (John 14:17, 15:26) by Paul (1 Cor 2:10, 12:11; Rom 8:26). There is a whole laundry list of the attributes of and about the Holy Spirit that would logically lead one to see that He is more than God’s breath, but God Himself. The Old Testament speaks of God in plural form (Gen 1:26, Isaiah 6: 3). Even Jesus stated that all sins would be forgiven men, even sins against the Son of Man, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would NOT be forgiven. (Matt 12:31-32). Lastly, one only need look at how Satan the accuser and father of lies, seeks to destroy men’s knowledge of God by looking at the cults and heretical doctrines out there. The Mormons, JWs, Oneness Pentecostals, and a whole bunch more, deny the Tri-une nature of God. Most of them deny that the Holy Spirit is a person. The either believe in Modalism or Tri-Theism, or some other apostate doctrine. I would simply say, look at the company you surround yourself with and ask whether or not, those groups who share similar doctrine are born again Christians.
- disqus_onpLyr90ST
  
  Bible teacher, Ken Johnson also agrees with you. You can write to him at ken@biblefacts.org or go to his website to listen to what he has to say about thr prooftext of a cult at http://biblefacts.org/cult/ For more information, see http://www.amazon.com/Ken-Johnson/e/B002NSQDEO for his bio and a list of his books. God bless!
- http://profiles.google.com/doughamp Doug Hamp
  
  Just for the record. I do not hold to Rob’s view. I believe the Holy Spirit is a person and is God, the third person of the trinity. I enjoyed the conversation with Rob. I suspect that he is not denying the trinity per se, he is simply trying to understand the role/character/personality of the HS. Asking the questions is always healthy.
Stephen

I love your discussion on Deuteronomy 24 and Jeremiah 3. It seems God kills Himself so that He can reconcile Himself
to the people He loves without violating His own law!
- Pete
  
  Then this makes Matthew 23:37-39 nonsensical. Did God know that the Jews would reject Jesus? Yes. Did He therefore kill Himself simply to bring the Jews back into covenant with Him (or to be His bride again? IF (and that is a big IF) that were the case, then why state in Matt 16:18 that Christ was going to build His Church? We know later, that the Church would be made up of Jew and Gentile, becoming one in the Body of Christ. Zechariah 12:10-14 states that this does not occur until the end of the Tribulation.
Peter Pellerin

Listened to another show today and what do you know… more bride of Christ talk

I still am interested in your explanation of Joh 3:29 and Mat 11:11. In what sense are the OT saints different?

Also, Jesus seems to paint a picture for us in John 14:1-3. Jesus is preparing a place for us in His Father’s house. When the Father gives the command, He will go and get His bride. The bride will go through the judgement seat if Christ. She will be rewarded. I do not believe that people will be added to the bride of Christ after the Father sends the Son to get them.

Mat 16:18, it seems clear that the church had not begun yet.

I am still not convinced you are on the right track with Israel being the bride of Christ. When the fullness of the gentiles have come in the Father will send Jesus to get His bride and God will then begin to remove the blindness of Israel.

Israel was married to Yaweh in the Old Testament on earth. The bride of Christ is a heavenly bride. It seems there will still be an Israel and nations in the millennium/ eternal state that will be distinct from the those whose permanent home is the New Jerusalem.

I am about to listen to your radio interviews with Bill Salus… maybe those will answer some of these questions.

I enjoy having my views challenged. Keep up the good work! I may come around .

Sorry for the brain dump of random thoughts.

Blessings,
Peter
- douglashamp
  
  Hi Peter…we all are trying to understand the things written in the Word. Think about Matt 22 when Jesus describes the kingdom of heaven like the king who has a wedding feast for his son. All the invited guest are invited and they don’t want to (most of the Jews). Then they go out into the streets and get the riffraff (gentiles). Where is the bride? Also, think about Hosea where God divorces then promises to remarry; when does the remarriage take place? Think about Isa 62 – speaking to Jerusalem, your sons will marry you. You shall no longer be termed Forsaken, Nor shall your land any more be termed Desolate; But you shall be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah; For the LORD delights in you, And your land shall be married. (Isa 62:4) For as a young man marries a virgin, So shall your sons marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So shall your God rejoice over you. (Isa 62:5)
  
  This is from my new book. It is a story, so don’t mind the names.
  
  Yeshúa Marries Yerushalayim
  
  Yeshúa then vowed to Yerushalayim “I will make you my wife
  forever— I will make you my wife in a way that is righteous, in a manner that
  is just, by a love that is gracious, and by a motive that is mercy.
  (Hos 2:19) I make you my wife forever because of my
  faithfulness, and you shall now know your King. (Hos 2:20) You shall no
  longer be termed Forsaken, nor shall your land any more be termed Desolate; But
  you shall be called (My Delight is in Her) Hephzibah, and your land (Married)
  Beulah; For I, Yeshúa, your King delight in you, and your land is now married.
  (Isa 62:4) And so as a young man marries a virgin, so shall your sons
  marry you; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your King
  rejoice over you. (Isa 62:5)
  
  Bení, let me explain for it may seem
  strange that the New Yerushalayim would be the bride of Yeshuá. (Rev 21:9-10)
  The Book clearly stated that the city was the bride of Yeshúa (Rev 21:9-10) and
  the people that go into the city were the invited guests (Mat 22:1-14; Rev
  19:9) (both of the nations or sons of Ya’akov.) The answer was found in the
  gates and foundations of the city. Elyón had declared that the sons of Ya’akov
  would marry (lord over, rule)[i] Tzion and through the
  prophet Yekhezki-El he revealed that the gates would bear the names of the
  twelve clans. (Ezek 48:31) That reality was further revealed through Yokhanan
  when he saw the bride of Yeshua coming down out of heaven and it had the names
  of the twelve clans on the gates (Rev 21:12, 13) and that the wall of the city
  had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles. (Rev 21:14) As
  you know, cities are comprised of a geographical location, plus earth, soil and
  rocks upon which there are buildings and roads and populated with people, so
  too with the mountain-city, the New Yerushalayim, the bride of Yeshua; (Rev
  21:9-10) it was a geographic location (in the land of Yisra-El), it had towers,
  walls, gates and streets, and importantly, it had inhabitants who made it their
  home.
  
  Yeshua then then looked compassionately at the city and those who would shortly inhabit it, “Sing! Burst into song and shout for joy, even you who were never in labor! Enlarge
  the location of your tent, let the curtains of your dwellings be stretched
  wide, and don’t hold back. Lengthen your cords; strengthen your stakes. For you
  will spread out to the right hand and to the left, and your descendants will
  possess the nations and will populate the deserted towns. “Don’t be afraid,
  because you won’t be ashamed; don’t fear shame, for you won’t be humiliated—
  because you will now forget the disgrace of your youth, for I, your Maker, am your husband; I am the King of the heavenly armies and the Holy One of Yisra-El. I have called you back like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, (Isa 54:6) For a brief moment I abandoned you; but now
  I have gathered you with great compassion.” (Isa 54:7) Indeed, the expression in
  his eyes exhibited his overwhelming love and compassion. Yeshua then looked at
  the sons of Ya’akov and made reference to their city, the lower Yerushalayim, “I hid my face from you for a moment in a surge of anger, but I will have compassion on you with my everlasting gracious love.” (Isa 54:1-8)
  
  Invited Guests
  
  The heart of every person standing before Yeshúa welled with anticipation.
  They were glad and rejoiced and gave Him glory! How blessed were those who were called to the
  marriage supper of the lamb! (Rev 19:9)
  The bride of the lamb, the New Yerushalayim was before them adorned as a
  beautiful bride. (Rev 19:8; 21:2, 9, 10) All who had put on the garment of
  yeshuáh, (Isa 61:10; Rom 13:14) the wedding garment, (Mat
  22:13) were eager to enter into the city, the bride of Yeshúa.
  
  The sons of Korah then began to sing to Yeshúa, “You are the most handsome of Adam’s
  descendants; grace has anointed your lips; therefore Elyón has blessed you
  forever. You strapped your sword to your side, mighty warrior, along with your
  honor and majesty. In your majesty you rode forth for the cause of truth,
  humility, and righteousness; and your strong right hand will teach you awesome
  things. Your arrows were sharpened to penetrate the hearts of the king’s
  enemies. (Hab 3:9, 10) People fell under youYour throne, Yeshúa, exists forever
  and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. You love
  justice and hate wickedness. That is why Elyón has anointed you rather than
  your companions with the oil of gladness. All your clothes are scented with
  myrrh, aloes, and cassia. From ivory palaces stringed instruments have made you
  glad. The king’s daughters are among your honorable women; the queen, dressed
  in gold from Ophir, has taken her place at your right hand,” they said motioning
  to all of the sublimely beautiful daughters of Adam who stood before Yeshúa.
  “Listen, daughter! Consider and pay attention. Forget your people and your
  father’s house, and the king will greatly desire your beauty. Because he is
  your lord, you should bow in respect before him. The daughter of Tyre will come
  with a wedding gift; wealthy people will entreat your favor. In her chamber,
  the king’s daughter is glorious; her clothing is embroidered with gold thread.
  (Ps 45:13) In embroidered garments she is presented to the king. Her virgin
  companions who follow her train will be presented to you. Filled with joy and
  gladness, they are presented when they enter the king’s palace.” (Amazingly, Yeshúa had spoken of his kingdom being likewise virgins (bridesmaids) that would follow in the king’s train when he
  came to get them for the wedding feast.) (Mat 25:1-13) Their
  gaze turned back to Yeshua declaring, “Your sons will take the place of your
  ancestors, and you will set them up as princes in all the earth. From
  generation to generation, I will cause your name to be remembered. Therefore
  people will thank you forever and ever. (Ps 45:1-17)
  
  Standing before Yeshúa, eager to enter into the
  wedding banquet, were the chaste (2Cor 11:2) and wise virgins – (Mat 25:1-13)
  that is, those who had been invited to the wedding supper. (Rev 19:9) Sadly,
  many of the sons of Ya’akov who had been chosen, (Mat 22:14) elected to be
  there at the wedding feast, who were sons of the kingdom that had already or
  would be thrown into outer darkness where there was weeping and gnashing of
  teeth. (Mat 8:11-12) Many would come from east and west, and sit down
  with Avraham, Yitzkhak, and Ya’akov in the kingdom but to the ones who rejected
  it, the door was shut. (Mat 8:11-12;
  25:10)
  
  Invitation to Enter in through the Gates
  
  Yeshúa, the great and high king spoke with all authority
  given him over heaven and earth (Mat 28:18), “How
  blessed are those who wash their robes so that they may have the right to the
  tree of life and may go through the gates into the city!” (Rev 22:14) With that invitation, people started moving
  toward the gates, though not everyone; only those who had been considered worthy of a place in
  that age and in the resurrection from the dead were allowed to enter in
  through the gates. (Luke 20:35; Isa 62:10) They were able to go in at that
  point because they had new bodies and had robes of light and therefore could
  enter through the gates into the city (Rev 22:14, Mat 13:43; Dan 12:2, 3).
  Those that entered in would neither
  marry nor be given in
  marriage for they were no longer subject to death,
  because they had become like the
  malakhim, being sons of the
  resurrection and sons of Elyón. (Luke 20:35-36)
  
  Adám smiled and closed his eyes bathing in the joy of that
  time. It was a wonderful moment and
  there was something special about the transition – just like a bridegroom
  coming to get his wife. So too was the beginning of the marriage supper of the
  King. There were many in that day who were shouting out at the top of their new
  voices.
  
  [i]
  From the Ivrit (Hebrew) word ba’al [בָּעַל]
  meaning to marry, lord over, rule, possess, own. (See TWOT)
  - Peter Pellerin
    
    Doug,
    
    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think I see what you are doing above.
    
    You did not answer about Joh 3:29 and Mat 11:11?
    
    So, do you think that the gentile believer’s now are just invited guests, but not really part of the bride?
    
    I still do not see why Yaweh can’t have a bride on earth (Israel) while Yeshua has a heavenly bride who dwells in the New Jerusalem. The key phrase I think in Isaiah 62 is “married to the land”. This could be Israel on earth and not the New Jerusalem?
    
    The church did not begin in the Old Testament as was claimed by Rob.. it began in the NT (Col 1:24-27).
    
    Blessings,
    Peter
  - Peter Pellerin
    
    Doug,
    
    One more comment…
    
    In Mat 22, I think the King has made a wedding for his Son. The bride is not mentioned because she is getting herself ready. The parable is all about having guests for the wedding, not finding people to be part of the bride. Also, the bride is not mentioned because the church had not been fully revealed (Col 1; Eph 3) when Jesus was speaking.
    
    In my traditional view, the guests for the wedding will be those Jews and gentiles who make it through the tribulation and go on into the millennium. Only those who have been saved during this time (wedding garment) will be able to attend the wedding. The parable is talking to Jews who are attending the wedding… they are not part of the bride. That is how I see it right now anyway .
    
    Blessings,
    
    Peter
    - douglashamp
      
      Hey Peter, The notion that John the Baptist and hence all the OT Jews are the friends while the church is the bride is erroneous. Isa 62 is God speaking to the city. Look at Isa 54 where God speaks again:
      
      “Sing, O barren, You {Jerusalem} [feminine singular] who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the LORD. (Isa 54:1) “Enlarge the place of your tent, And let them stretch out the curtains of your dwellings; Do not spare; Lengthen your cords, And strengthen your stakes. (Isa 54:2) For you shall expand to the right and to the left, And your descendants will inherit the nations, And make the desolate cities inhabited. (Isa 54:3) “Do not fear, for you {Jerusalem} [feminine singular] will not be ashamed; Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; For you will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore. (Isa 54:4) For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. (Isa 54:5) For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused,” Says your God. (Isa 54:6) “For a mere moment I have forsaken you {Jerusalem} [feminine singular], But with great mercies I will gather you. (Isa 54:7) With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” Says the LORD, your Redeemer. (Isa 54:8) “For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. (Isa 54:9) For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,” Says the LORD, who has mercy on you. (Isa 54:10) “O you afflicted one {Jerusalem} [feminine singular], Tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, And lay your foundations with sapphires. (Isa 54:11) I will make your pinnacles of rubies, Your gates of crystal, And all your walls of precious stones. (Isa 54:12)
      
      The last verse is parallel to Rev 21. Is the picture getting clearer?
      
      Jesus even says in Rev 19 blessed are all who are called to the marriage feast of the lamb…the bride has made herself ready…and then we see the bride. The bride is Jerusalem and then the BELIEVING sons of Jacob AND gentile believers enter in and thus become an integral part of the city. Thus I would say that we become part of the bride, we are consumated into it in a sense.
      - Peter Pellerin
        
        Doug,
        Thanks! I appreceate you taking the time to discuss these things. I will think on these passages some more….
        In your view, what do you think of the passages in the OT that suggest that the population in Israel will be increasing during the millennium? (Jer 33:22; Zech 10:8) It seems like they will still be having children.. marrying and being given in marraige. It does not seem like they have their ressurected bodies yet. Maybe I am missing something in these passages. Will the bride be made up partly of those in their ressurected bodies and partly of those who are not?
        Aldo, you day the friend of the bridegroom concept is erroneous, but you did not say in your view what you think he meant. Also, what did Jesus mean when he said those who were least in the Kingdom of heaven were greater than John?
        We need to put all this together somehow in a coherent manner. There are a lot of verses that present challenges in my mind to accepting yoru view. Maybe there is explanations to make it all fit.
        Blessings,
        Peter
      - douglashamp
        
        I am writing a book and trying to make all the pieces fit. The big key is that “heaven” itself is somewhat misunderstood. The New Jerusalem (heaven) is going to come down to the earth and that is going to happen at the beginning of the millennium.
      - Peter Pellerin
        
        Just listened to your interview with Bill Salus today… looking forward to the new book.
        
        Not fully convinced yet, but I find it interesting…
        
        One last quick question… In your view is Ezekiel’s temple in the New Jerusalem or is it outside of the New Jerusalem?
        
        Where are sacrifices made.. New Jerusalem or outside?
      - Peter Pellerin
        
        Doug,
        
        I have to make one final comment… sorry for so many comments about the bride… this one is still bothering me…
        
        I heard you say that God having both Israel and the church as a bride is divine poligamy. I do not understand this comment. The Father and the Son are not the same “person” for lack of a better term.
        
        In the ancient Jewish wedding (as I understand it), after the bethrothal, the son would prepare an addition on the Father’s house for his bride to with with him in. The father and the son could both have brides in the same house!
        
        I do not see why the Father and the Son cannot both have brides. I am convinced that there will be no additions to the bride of Christ following His coming for the church. I also believe that Israel will one day again be the bride of Yaweh.
        
        Scott, in his exposition on Revelation said this:
        
        “Israel in her land was the wife of Jehovah (Jer. 3:14-20; Isa. 54:1), but the wife was divorced because of her iniquity. Israel, however, is to be reinstated in Jehovah’s favour. But a divorced wife can never again be a virgin, and it is not a divorced wife but a virgin whom the Lord marries (Lev. 21:14)”
        
        Blessings,
        
        Peter
Cody

Great show guys! I was so surprised when the two hours were up, I could listen to you guys talk for days! Really two great minds at work here

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