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Calvinism and Hitler (Just for Fun)

In my article Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists (click here for the video) I show that the term elect is not salvation and that when the NT talks about “the elect” it is referring to the Jews (and not some one who is saved). I submit the following video for fun – I like Calvinists themselves, just not the Calvinist doctrine.  – Doug

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25 comments

  1. If you think Calvin’s statement about predestination is jarring, you may not want to read the following:

    Question – why did God make people that He knew in advance would reject Him and go to hell? Why didn’t He just not allow those pregnancies to happen, only allowing babies to be born who would eventually believe? He’s God – He could do it if He wanted to, and He’s the giver of *all* life. So the ball starts and ends in His court?

    Or worse, if Jesus knew from the beginning those who would believe, those who would not believe and those who would betray Him (Jn 6:64), why on *earth* did He preach to people who He knew in advance would reject Him? All that preaching would only serve one purpose: condemn them to a worse hell than what they would have gotten if He’d said nothing!! (now read Matt 11:20ff). The “smart” thing to do would be to take aside would-be believers and only preach to them, not the masses. Yet Jesus didn’t do this. He preached publicly until He was rejected, then He preached privately. Why??

    I’ve tried for years to find non-calvinists who can give any semblance of rationality (or Biblical authority) on why God and Jesus willfully engaged in these actions. Invariably, all the non-calvinists I’ve come across sweep these actions under the rug of “mystery”, as if I should somehow lay aside my brain and blithely assume God simply can’t do better than score a ~10% success rate, despite wanting everyone to be saved.

    I’m hoping someday I’ll find a non-calvinist that can answer this. So far, I’ve not found any.
    (And I must confess that this concerns me. Are calvinists the only one that think for more than 2 seconds?)

    • Wow, so your two questions are the end all to the Calvinist debate?…amazing! The answer seems pretty obvious to me but I’m probably not as great of a scholar as you. My answer is FREE WILL. True love always requires a choice, that is why God allows all of His creations choice: angels, Adam and eve, you, etc. I think an even greater question to you would be if God elected those He was going to save why didn’t He just create robots who would love Him, which is exactly what Calvinist doctrine teaches. You asking why would Jesus preach knowing He would be hardening those who wouldn’t listen doesn’t even go back far enough. If your doctrine is true why create them at all? Why does the Bible tell us to repent if it’s not really possible to the unsaved? Jesus was preaching His message to all, yes knowing most wouldn’t choose Him, but He also knew some would…that doesn’t seem like a brain buster to me but like you said maybe Calvinist are the only ones who use their brains…chosen and intellectually superior! By the way the reason God only has a supposed 10% success rate is because man is born with a fallen nature and repentance and acceptance requires 100% humility. That is the hardest thing for man to do is completely let go of self and depend 100% on God. By the way could you tell me your view on the rapture…I’ve got a hypothesis I’m testing…just curious. I gotta go, I’ve been looking all day for my brain…

      • Chuck – thanks for taking time to write a response. I’d like you to consider the following:

        > My answer is FREE WILL

        1. Why then does the Bible *never* explicitly teach that man has free will? There is not one single verse anywhere in the Bible that explicitly teaches that man has free ability to choose according to his will. Any time I raise this question, I always hear “Choose ye this day…” and I’m compelled to point out that “given a choice” has nothing to do with “free will to choose as one wishes” and even Joshua acknowledges this not 10 verses later. For example, did Pharaoh have the ability to freely choose between letting God’s people go and keeping them? The answer is a solid ‘no’. God deliberately hardened his heart **so that** he would not let His people go. This is precisely what Exod 4:21 and Exod 9:16ff says. God’s *intention* was for Pharaoh to not let His people go. What choice did Pharaoh have in the matter? Unbeknownst to him, he was obligated to comply with God’s plan for him, and he “chose” to disobey God’s command to let His people go. What kind of “free will” is that? And there are literally dozens of examples like this where God explicitly says that He made/sent/ordained/deceived the person so that he would do wrong and then God punished the person for doing that wrong thing. Read Is 11, 30, 39, and of course, Romans 9. (there are lots more passages. let me know if you’re looking for more)

        2. Why does the Bible consistently teach that man is a slave to sin, and that he always chooses to sin? (Ps 14; Rom 3; Rom 8:7-8) If this isn’t the opposite of “free will”, I don’t know what is. Even in neutral matters, the Bible teaches us that God shapes man’s steps, plans and destiny. How can a man have free will if God is shaping his heart so that he goes where God wants him to go and does what God wants him to do? (Prov 21:1; Prov 16:4)

        3. If Free Will is the order of the day, that still doesn’t explain why God would create a person, knowing full well in advance that the person will consistently choose to reject Him till his dying day. If God didn’t want people in hell, He has 2 choices at His disposal: 1. Elect everybody (which He didn’t do) 2. Don’t make people who will reject Him (He didn’t do that either. In fact, the majority of humans that He made are humans that would reject Him till their dying day). Please remember: God is not obligated to create a human and implant him/her in a woman’s womb just because two humans had sex. Why didn’t God use His foreknowledge and say “Wow! If she gets pregnant, her child is going to reject me and burn in hell forever. Forget it! No pregnancy for you!”

        4. Why does God repeatedly say that He hardens people’s hearts *so that* they will not hear, understand and believe *lest* they should repent and He would have to heal/forgive them? Please read Isaiah 6:8-10, Matt 13:13-15, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:8-10 .. and then look at how John quotes the same verse in Jn 12:37-40. Please note 2 things: a) who is doing the hardening; b) why is He doing the hardening. Both answers directly contradict any notion of free will or a God who wants everyone to hear and be saved.  In short, Jesus’ actions directly contradict your reasoning.

        5. Do you ever pray for God to save someone? If the choice is up to them and God is powerless to change that choice, why pray for them at all? And if God can change a person’s heart and mind so that he accepts Him – why doesn’t God do that for everyone? You can’t have it both ways on this: either He can, or He can’t. If they have free will and He can’t, why pray for their salvation? And if He can change their heart/mind, why doesn’t He do so for everyone?

        > True love always requires a choice, that is why God allows all of His creations choice: angels, Adam and eve, you, etc.

        I’ve heard this answer 101 times. Regrettably, this is simply not true. If it were, for starters, the Bible would say so – and it doesn’t. Secondly, there would be a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (or some equivalent) in heaven when we get there. Yet there is no mention of any such thing. In fact, we’re told repeatedly that we will love Him forever and will never fall from heaven. Which brings us to 2 very interesting questions:
        1. How can your statement be true if we will not be given the option to sin against Him in heaven? According to your logic, we will not love Him in heaven.
        2. If we will be recreated with new bodies in a new heaven and new earth in such a way that we remain eternally sinless with eternal love for the Father – why didn’t He just create Adam and Eve that way in the first place? Clearly He has the power to do so. And clearly He chose not to.
        Your premise sounds good, but is utterly false – which is why the Bible never ever states it. This is purely man’s invention.

        > why didn’t He just create robots who would love Him, which is exactly what Calvinist doctrine teaches.

        Just an FYI.. if you stuck with Biblical lingo, you wouldn’t talk about robots or puppets – you’d talk about clay and how God uses the same lump to make completely different types of vessels (people) according to His good pleasure and will. Jer 18; Rom 9, etc.

        > If your doctrine is true why create them at all?

        Your question is asked and answered directly in Rom 9. Start in v18 and continue to v 29. If you believe what you read there, you will be compelled to toss out much of what you’ve said here.

        > Why does the Bible tell us to repent if it’s not really possible to the unsaved?

        Don’t look now, but this is not the only time God commands something people can’t do. (eg, why does God command us to live by the Ten Commandments, or to “be holy as I am holy”, when He knows full well we can’t?) Read Rom 9.

        > Jesus was preaching His message to all, yes knowing most wouldn’t choose Him, but He also knew some would…that doesn’t seem like a brain buster to me…

        But consider the implications, because they are contrary to your premise.
        Jesus knew *in advance* who would believe and who would not (Jn 6:64). Why didn’t He take aside those who would believe so that the non-believers would be spared a hell worse than what they were headed for? He took believers aside later in His ministry (Mark 4), but previously, He didn’t: He preached to people knowing full well that His preaching would only serve to make their hell hotter. Furthermore, why on earth did Jesus not preach to Sodom and Gomorrah when He knew full well that they would have repented? (cf Matt 11:20ff with Gen 19:24 Put these two passages together [Jesus was “boots on the ground” for both events!!], and you’ll have to conclude that if God wanted everyone to be saved bar none, Jesus didn’t get the memo.)
        Intellectual superiority has nothing to do with it. It’s about God’s good pleasure. Read Matt 11:20ff with this in mind, and you’ll see Jesus behaving (and thanking God!!) for the exact opposite reasons of what you keep insisting.

        > By the way the reason God only has a supposed 10% success rate is because man is born with a fallen nature…

        Yes . .. but why did God create those fetuses so that they would be born in the first place? Is God not the creator of all life? Can He not seal up a womb if He wants to? Where is it written that He must make a woman pregnant whenever she has sex? Why doesn’t He foresee that the child will reject Him and, based on that foreknowledge, simply seal up the woman’s womb so she doesn’t birth those hell-bound children? The ball is in His court, and your answer doesn’t take that into consideration.

        rapture…. (not sure what this has to do with the topic, but since you asked)
        The dead in Christ will rise first. Then those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess 4:15ff). We’ll note for the record that this passage, the clearest passage on the rapture, makes no mention of whether Jesus then continues down to the earth for the Day of Judgment (2 Thess 1; Rev 19; etc) or turns around and goes back to heaven (FWIW, there are no passages that describe Jesus coming for His people, turning around and going back to heaven).

        By the way.. is there a particular reason why we’re having a Biblical discussion and you’re not presenting any Biblical passages for me to read? I find this a lot and I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

        • let me respond to your lengthy discourse simply and shortly…i believe man is totally fallen and born into sin nature…we would never seek God nor turn to Him…The only way we find God is through Jesus coming to us and by The Father drawing us to Truth through the Holy Spirit…Salvation is 100% of God…i dont believe that “belief” is a work…i believe we have free will in that of our attitudes and choices…by the way God gives grace to the humble…humility is the prerequisuite of grace…humility is an attitude…once again Scripture calls us over and over to be humble and repent…Scripture says God wants “all men to be saved”..i will take God at His Word there and not come up with God having “two wills” or something else.  Also, i have heavily weighed both sides of this issue and read books according to both sides…when it comes to this doctrine i lean towards free will…Scripture does seem to validate parts of each…but if im ignorant and “wrong” i would rather be wrong stating that God wants all to turn to Him (I dont think He will be mad at me for that)…I will gladly be held accountable for my ignorance, but i sure dont want to be stating a doctrine about Him that could be wrong and give people a false impression of His grace and mercy…you see my reasoning here?!?!  well…there is my view take it or leave it..thanks for your response, i will continue to tell ALL that God wants them saved!

          • I understand your position as I used to hold it myself quite firmly.

            For me, the turning point came the more I analyzed the Moses vs Pharaoh story in Exod 3-12. I couldn’t get around the motive that God explicitly (and repeatedly) declares He has. The more I studied it, the more I found my old understanding unable to explain what was going on. My assumption (and what I had been taught all my life) was that God was *responding* to Pharaoh, and with that assumption, a number of verses in the story (especially Exod 4:21ff, 9:15-16, etc) stated things that directly contradicted my understanding of who God is and what He’s doing here.  God would consistently describe His preference, purpose and pleasure in NOT having Pharaoh respond in repentance so He could destroy Pharaoh, his son (what if his son was 3 yrs old – too young to respond to God in obedience ..and God kills him?? Does this sound right to anyone??). How then could I turn around and say that God wants everyone to be saved when God made it quite clear that He had NO intention of Pharoah getting saved? Furthermore, when Pharaoh repented twice, God responded by continuing to harden his heart. Where is Pharaoh’s “free will” if God continues to harden his heart even though he repented 2 times (he only hardened his heart 3 times).

            And if God commands Pharaoh to “let My people go”, yet at the same time confides in Moses that He’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart so that he *won’t* let His people go… what choice do I have but to insist that God has two wills? A revealed will and a secret will. Is that not precisely what He explains to Moses (4:21ff)?

            And why did Jesus say that Sodom & Gomorrah would have repented, yet He chose instead to burn them rather than preach to them? And why did Jesus preach to Bethsaida, Chorzain and Capernaum when He knew full well that they would reject Him thereby condemning them to a worse hell ..and then turned around and thanked God for hiding the truth from them? (Matt 11:20ff)

            And I’m supposed to believe that God’s highest concern is for the salvation of all people???

            So when I read 2 Peter 3:8-9, what I see is that God wants all *His* people to be saved and come to repentance . After all, that’s who he’s talking to in that paragraph. He’s not talking to or about wicked people. (Note that Jesus prayed that way in Jn 17). Wicked people (as Peter describes in the previous chapter as well as in 1 Peter) are…
            – pigs and dogs (Peter’s words, not mine),
            – worthless clouds
            – creatures “created to be destroyed” (Peter’s words, not mine),
            – stumbling over the Cornerstone “just as they were destined/appointed to do” (Peter’s words, not mine).

            Can you feel the love? How can I read this and conclude that God has salvation-like love for them and wants them to be saved when Peter himself has absolutely no sympathy or concern for them and is content to see them get their just desserts from God’s wrath (2 Peter 3:1-7)? Where is the prayer for the salvation of the wicked? (One of these days I’ll need to collect all the verses where God’s people pray for the salvation of wicked people. Do you know of any?)

            So I started to study the Bible on the question of free will, collecting any/every verse I could find in favor of the concept, thinking surely I was missing something. I was quite stunned (seriously!) to find that every last one of the verses only *implied* that man had free will. None of them explicitly stated that man has free will, and nowhere could I find anything that suggested that God gives us an opportunity to show we can disobey Him in order to legitimize our love for Him (actually, that’s not exactly true. Deut 13:1-3 comes close, but the way it’s stated, all my pro-freewill friends would rather not deal with the passage). My friends blow off my concern that these verses only imply free will, but I point out that there are a number of contrary verses that *explicitly state* that man does not have freewill. The Bible is clearly slanted against the notion of man having free will and *for* man not having free will (or a free will that can be overridden by God .. which is just a fancy way of saying that when push comes to shove, man indeed does not have free will.

            So I dumped the idea. As far as I’m concerned, the Bible is clear that man has the appearance of free will. (And then I come to find out that Martin Luther wrote a paper on that exact topic [“Bondage of the will”]). When I explain my position and show how the Bible consistently takes this position, oddly enough, my friends do what you just did: they re-state their views, but provide no Biblical answer to my questions, and make no attempt to enhance my understanding of the Bible. So it appears that I’m stuck here, because I have no choice but to call it like I see it: man has the appearance of free will, but does not really have free will.

            My friends laugh at me, but so be it.

            I also tell them that they were predestined to believe in free will.
            (The ones that don’t get that line keep on laughing.)

            I do not call myself a Calvinist because I’ve not read Calvin’s works. But so far, the Calvinist response is the only one that even begins to offer a Biblically consistent answer to what I see in the Bible.

            If anyone can provide non-Calvinist Biblical answers to these questions, PLEASE help me out!

          • You make my brain hurt broseph…on a positive note we will soon see who is “right”… I honestly don’t feel we have time to debate anymore in our world…that time is over…time to save souls as we prepare for His SOON coming…I just wish I would hear those sweet words…I COULD BE WRONG…every once in a while from my fine Christian brothers! I’m always willing to admit that…We got too many Hank Han’s out there today! Agree to disagree…peace bra!

          • *** Tim,I’m responding to your previous comments and I bracketed my responses with three asterisks *** so you would know where I inserted my comments or rebuttals into your previous reply message.***
            I understand your position as I used to hold it myself quite firmly. For me, the turning point came the more I analyzed the Moses vs Pharaoh story in Exod 3-12. I couldn’t get around the motive that God explicitly (and repeatedly) declares He has. The more I studied it, the more I found my old understanding unable to explain what was going on. My assumption (and what I had been taught all my life) was that God was responding to Pharaoh, and with that assumption, a number of verses in the story (especially Exod 4:21ff, 9:15-16, etc) stated things that directly contradicted my understanding of who God is and what He’s doing here.  God would consistently describe His preference, purpose and pleasure in NOT having Pharaoh respond in repentance so He could destroy Pharaoh, his son (what if his son was 3 yrs old – too young to respond to God in obedience ..and God kills him?? Does this sound right to anyone??). ***The son of Pharaoh most likely went to heaven based on David’s statement about his own son from Bathsheba that died as a discipline from God (2 Sam 12:23).  I believe all children who die before the age of accountability are saved and go to heaven.***   How then could I turn around and say that God wants everyone to be saved when God made it quite clear that He had NO intention of Pharaoh getting saved?  *** God wants all men to be saved but since no men seek Him for salvation He saves only a few as a gift.  God used the non-seeking Pharaoh for His purposes before condemning him, which all men absolutely deserve.***  Furthermore, when Pharaoh repented twice, God responded by continuing to harden his heart. Where is Pharaoh’s “free will” if God continues to harden his heart even though he repented 2 times (he only hardened his heart 3 times).  *** Pharaoh did not repent and seek the God of Moses not even once.  You are mixing repent of a command verses the only repentance that matters – to change your mind about God and to seek Him instead of rejecting Him.***And if God commands Pharaoh to “let My people go”, yet at the same time confides in Moses that He’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart so that he won’t let His people go… what choice do I have but to insist that God has two wills? A revealed will and a secret will. Is that not precisely what He explains to Moses (4:21ff)?  *** God has a gracious plan and he has mankind do what He wants because all have rejected Him.  He hardens some and He opens the hearts of others like Lydia (Acts 16:14). God designed it this way from the beginning so that no one could boast or complain (Rom 11:32-33).***And why did Jesus say that Sodom & Gomorrah would have repented, yet He chose instead to burn them rather than preach to them? And why did Jesus preach to Bethsaida, Chorzain and Capernaum when He knew full well that they would reject Him thereby condemning them to a worse hell ..and then turned around and thanked God for hiding the truth from them? (Matt 11:20ff)  ***There are plenty of people who don’t believe God so sometimes God has to demonstrate what He knows by example so that you and future humans, not to mention His angelic hosts, don’t have to take His word for it.  You can see the unbelievers reactions for yourself. Saving some men is also a gracious example of God’s love.  God chose to save some rejecting men to demonstrate His love to all of His creations.*** And I’m supposed to believe that God’s highest concern is for the salvation of all people???  ***It is highest concern, but when no man wants salvation it is hard to argue with God that He decided to save some against their will as a gracious gift that He had to pay for with the death of His Son.***So when I read 2 Peter 3:8-9, what I see is that God wants all *His* people to be saved and come to repentance . After all, that’s who he’s talking to in that paragraph. He’s not talking to or about wicked people.  ***Yes He is.  All people are wicked from the standpoint of God’s righteousness.  His people are the Jews but they are not saved because they are Jews by blood.  Graciously, God saves a remnant of His people the Jews.*** (Note that Jesus prayed that way in Jn 17). Wicked people (as Peter describes in the previous chapter as well as in 1 Peter) are…- pigs and dogs (Peter’s words, not mine),- worthless clouds- creatures “created to be destroyed” (Peter’s words, not mine),- stumbling over the Cornerstone “just as they were destined/appointed to do” (Peter’s words, not mine).  ***They were appointed to stumble because they reject God just like all of mankind does except those God has decided to save.  Even the ones He saves start off rejecting Him before He changes their mind.***Can you feel the love? How can I read this and conclude that God has salvation-like love for them and wants them to be saved when Peter himself has absolutely no sympathy or concern for them and is content to see them get their just desserts from God’s wrath (2 Peter 3:1-7)? Where is the prayer for the salvation of the wicked? (One of these days I’ll need to collect all the verses where God’s people pray for the salvation of wicked people. Do you know of any?)  ***Jesus prayed for the one’s killing Him because they did not know what they were really doing.  Jesus also taught us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, which has a deeper meaning when you realize that you are saved by God’s choice and not your own (since you exercised yours by rejecting Him). You could be the enemy instead of the saved.  And you don’t know which of one of your enemies God might save in the future.***So I started to study the Bible on the question of free will, collecting any/every verse I could find in favor of the concept, thinking surely I was missing something. I was quite stunned (seriously!) to find that every last one of the verses only *implied* that man had free will. *** Mat 13:15 says, “ the people …have closed their eyes otherwise they might see…” which sounds like free will to me.  God holds man accountable to seek Him in Acts 17:26-27.  Jesus told everyone to seek Him (Mat 7:7-8) and in 1 Chr 28:9 God says if you seek Him, He will let you find Him otherwise He will forsake you forever.  If you are looking for a verse that says “Man has free will” in these exact terms you will not find it, but neither will you find the word trinity or rapture, but they are truths that can be realized by putting many verses together. *** None of them explicitly stated that man has free will, and nowhere could I find anything that suggested that God gives us an opportunity to show we can disobey Him in order to legitimize our love for Him (actually, that’s not exactly true. Deut 13:1-3 comes close, but the way it’s stated, all my pro-freewill friends would rather not deal with the passage). My friends blow off my concern that these verses only imply free will, but I point out that there are a number of contrary verses that *explicitly state* that man does not have freewill. ***You have free will when it comes to seeking God and there is no verse that contradicts this. If you find one let please me know.***  The Bible is clearly slanted against the notion of man having free will and *for* man not having free will (or a free will that can be overridden by God .. which is just a fancy way of saying that when push comes to shove, man indeed does not have free will.  *** I disagree.  I believe in free will but since all men reject God freely, He had to predestinate a few in order to have any saved.  Free will takes all men to hell, but God’s gracious gift of salvation by predestination takes some of those hell bound men to heaven.  Calvinism is wrong to say that man cannot seek God.  Just because man is born a sinner and has to sin does not mean he cannot seek God. Calvinism is also wrong when it states that God predestines some men to hell without a choice.  God would be a monster if He did that.  God only predestines a few men to heaven and lets the rest do what they want to do freely, which results in hell.*** So I dumped the idea. As far as I’m concerned, the Bible is clear that man has the appearance of free will. (And then I come to find out that Martin Luther wrote a paper on that exact topic [“Bondage of the will”]). When I explain my position and show how the Bible consistently takes this position, oddly enough, my friends do what you just did: they re-state their views, but provide no Biblical answer to my questions, and make no attempt to enhance my understanding of the Bible. So it appears that I’m stuck here, because I have no choice but to call it like I see it: man has the appearance of free will, but does not really have free will.My friends laugh at me, but so be it.I also tell them that they were predestined to believe in free will.(The ones that don’t get that line keep on laughing.)I do not call myself a Calvinist because I’ve not read Calvin’s works. But so far, the Calvinist response is the only one that even begins to offer a Biblically consistent answer to what I see in the Bible.If anyone can provide non-Calvinist Biblical answers to these questions, PLEASE help me out!  ***I hope some of my answers helped.  You have to look at scripture more from God’s perspective than from man’s perspective.  If you realize all men freely reject God because they want to and are wicked and deserve hell then you will start to understand better why God does what He does. – John Jurek***

          • *** Tim,I’m responding to your previous comments and I bracketed my responses with three asterisks *** so you would know where I inserted my comments or rebuttals into your previous reply message.***
            I understand your position as I used to hold it myself quite firmly. For me, the turning point came the more I analyzed the Moses vs Pharaoh story in Exod 3-12. I couldn’t get around the motive that God explicitly (and repeatedly) declares He has. The more I studied it, the more I found my old understanding unable to explain what was going on. My assumption (and what I had been taught all my life) was that God was responding to Pharaoh, and with that assumption, a number of verses in the story (especially Exod 4:21ff, 9:15-16, etc) stated things that directly contradicted my understanding of who God is and what He’s doing here.  God would consistently describe His preference, purpose and pleasure in NOT having Pharaoh respond in repentance so He could destroy Pharaoh, his son (what if his son was 3 yrs old – too young to respond to God in obedience ..and God kills him?? Does this sound right to anyone??). ***The son of Pharaoh most likely went to heaven based on David’s statement about his own son from Bathsheba that died as a discipline from God (2 Sam 12:23).  I believe all children who die before the age of accountability are saved and go to heaven.***   How then could I turn around and say that God wants everyone to be saved when God made it quite clear that He had NO intention of Pharaoh getting saved?  *** God wants all men to be saved but since no men seek Him for salvation He saves only a few as a gift.  God used the non-seeking Pharaoh for His purposes before condemning him, which all men absolutely deserve.***  Furthermore, when Pharaoh repented twice, God responded by continuing to harden his heart. Where is Pharaoh’s “free will” if God continues to harden his heart even though he repented 2 times (he only hardened his heart 3 times).  *** Pharaoh did not repent and seek the God of Moses not even once.  You are mixing repent of a command verses the only repentance that matters – to change your mind about God and to seek Him instead of rejecting Him.***And if God commands Pharaoh to “let My people go”, yet at the same time confides in Moses that He’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart so that he won’t let His people go… what choice do I have but to insist that God has two wills? A revealed will and a secret will. Is that not precisely what He explains to Moses (4:21ff)?  *** God has a gracious plan and he has mankind do what He wants because all have rejected Him.  He hardens some and He opens the hearts of others like Lydia (Acts 16:14). God designed it this way from the beginning so that no one could boast or complain (Rom 11:32-33).***And why did Jesus say that Sodom & Gomorrah would have repented, yet He chose instead to burn them rather than preach to them? And why did Jesus preach to Bethsaida, Chorzain and Capernaum when He knew full well that they would reject Him thereby condemning them to a worse hell ..and then turned around and thanked God for hiding the truth from them? (Matt 11:20ff)  ***There are plenty of people who don’t believe God so sometimes God has to demonstrate what He knows by example so that you and future humans, not to mention His angelic hosts, don’t have to take His word for it.  You can see the unbelievers reactions for yourself. Saving some men is also a gracious example of God’s love.  God chose to save some rejecting men to demonstrate His love to all of His creations.*** And I’m supposed to believe that God’s highest concern is for the salvation of all people???  ***It is highest concern, but when no man wants salvation it is hard to argue with God that He decided to save some against their will as a gracious gift that He had to pay for with the death of His Son.***So when I read 2 Peter 3:8-9, what I see is that God wants all *His* people to be saved and come to repentance . After all, that’s who he’s talking to in that paragraph. He’s not talking to or about wicked people.  ***Yes He is.  All people are wicked from the standpoint of God’s righteousness.  His people are the Jews but they are not saved because they are Jews by blood.  Graciously, God saves a remnant of His people the Jews.*** (Note that Jesus prayed that way in Jn 17). Wicked people (as Peter describes in the previous chapter as well as in 1 Peter) are…- pigs and dogs (Peter’s words, not mine),- worthless clouds- creatures “created to be destroyed” (Peter’s words, not mine),- stumbling over the Cornerstone “just as they were destined/appointed to do” (Peter’s words, not mine).  ***They were appointed to stumble because they reject God just like all of mankind does except those God has decided to save.  Even the ones He saves start off rejecting Him before He changes their mind.***Can you feel the love? How can I read this and conclude that God has salvation-like love for them and wants them to be saved when Peter himself has absolutely no sympathy or concern for them and is content to see them get their just desserts from God’s wrath (2 Peter 3:1-7)? Where is the prayer for the salvation of the wicked? (One of these days I’ll need to collect all the verses where God’s people pray for the salvation of wicked people. Do you know of any?)  ***Jesus prayed for the one’s killing Him because they did not know what they were really doing.  Jesus also taught us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, which has a deeper meaning when you realize that you are saved by God’s choice and not your own (since you exercised yours by rejecting Him). You could be the enemy instead of the saved.  And you don’t know which of one of your enemies God might save in the future.***So I started to study the Bible on the question of free will, collecting any/every verse I could find in favor of the concept, thinking surely I was missing something. I was quite stunned (seriously!) to find that every last one of the verses only *implied* that man had free will. *** Mat 13:15 says, “ the people …have closed their eyes otherwise they might see…” which sounds like free will to me.  God holds man accountable to seek Him in Acts 17:26-27.  Jesus told everyone to seek Him (Mat 7:7-8) and in 1 Chr 28:9 God says if you seek Him, He will let you find Him otherwise He will forsake you forever.  If you are looking for a verse that says “Man has free will” in these exact terms you will not find it, but neither will you find the word trinity or rapture, but they are truths that can be realized by putting many verses together. *** None of them explicitly stated that man has free will, and nowhere could I find anything that suggested that God gives us an opportunity to show we can disobey Him in order to legitimize our love for Him (actually, that’s not exactly true. Deut 13:1-3 comes close, but the way it’s stated, all my pro-freewill friends would rather not deal with the passage). My friends blow off my concern that these verses only imply free will, but I point out that there are a number of contrary verses that *explicitly state* that man does not have freewill. ***You have free will when it comes to seeking God and there is no verse that contradicts this. If you find one let please me know.***  The Bible is clearly slanted against the notion of man having free will and *for* man not having free will (or a free will that can be overridden by God .. which is just a fancy way of saying that when push comes to shove, man indeed does not have free will.  *** I disagree.  I believe in free will but since all men reject God freely, He had to predestinate a few in order to have any saved.  Free will takes all men to hell, but God’s gracious gift of salvation by predestination takes some of those hell bound men to heaven.  Calvinism is wrong to say that man cannot seek God.  Just because man is born a sinner and has to sin does not mean he cannot seek God. Calvinism is also wrong when it states that God predestines some men to hell without a choice.  God would be a monster if He did that.  God only predestines a few men to heaven and lets the rest do what they want to do freely, which results in hell.*** So I dumped the idea. As far as I’m concerned, the Bible is clear that man has the appearance of free will. (And then I come to find out that Martin Luther wrote a paper on that exact topic [“Bondage of the will”]). When I explain my position and show how the Bible consistently takes this position, oddly enough, my friends do what you just did: they re-state their views, but provide no Biblical answer to my questions, and make no attempt to enhance my understanding of the Bible. So it appears that I’m stuck here, because I have no choice but to call it like I see it: man has the appearance of free will, but does not really have free will.My friends laugh at me, but so be it.I also tell them that they were predestined to believe in free will.(The ones that don’t get that line keep on laughing.)I do not call myself a Calvinist because I’ve not read Calvin’s works. But so far, the Calvinist response is the only one that even begins to offer a Biblically consistent answer to what I see in the Bible.If anyone can provide non-Calvinist Biblical answers to these questions, PLEASE help me out!  ***I hope some of my answers helped.  You have to look at scripture more from God’s perspective than from man’s perspective.  If you realize all men freely reject God because they want to and are wicked and deserve hell then you will start to understand better why God does what He does. – John Jurek***

    • Tim,

      You said, “He
      preached publicly until He was rejected, then He preached privately. Why??

      I’ve tried
      for years to find non-calvinists who can give any semblance of rationality (or
      Biblical authority) on why God and Jesus willfully engaged in these actions.” 

      Just so you
      know I’m not a Calvinist and I believe the reason Jesus preached in parables after
      the Jews rejected Him was an act of grace so that they would not continue to
      reject things they could understand making the punishment less in Hell.  Jesus went to parables so they could not
      understand and be held less accountable.

      By
      the way I believe in free will and predestination for salvation as follows:  In Acts 17:26-27 and other places (1 Chr
      28:9, Ps 14:2-3, Mat 7:7-8), God holds man accountable to seek after Him, but
      sadly no one does as stated in Romans 3:11. Since no man uses his free will to
      truly seek God for salvation, then all men are condemned (Rom 1:18-20). God
      knew this before He created the world and that is why He predestined some men
      (2 Thes 2:10-13) to believe by giving them faith by grace as a love gift to His
      Son Jesus Christ (John 6:37). It is true that no one can come to Jesus and believe
      unless God draws him (John 6:44), but that is because God gives that belief to
      come to Jesus as a gift. The only thing you can do on your own that is required
      by God is to seek God for help of your sinful self since you cannot stop from
      sinning. It is humbling to admit your sin is bigger than you are and to ask God
      for help. It is the opposite of pride. If you would truly seek God for help
      then He would give you the gift of faith/belief to come to Jesus Christ as the
      means of His salvation. Since no one does seek with their free will, God makes
      some seek and believe by giving them the gift of faith by His grace (Eph
      2:8-10, Acts 2:47) even though they did not ask for it. This is why Jesus was
      found by those who did not seek Him (Rom 10:20). Free will takes all to hell,
      but God’s predestination takes some of those free willed hell-bound people to
      heaven, which are His elect (Jewish and gentile remnants and the church). The
      fact that all men reject God freely, gives God the legal ground to harden some
      hearts like Pharaoh and to open others like Lydia (Acts 16:14) for His own
      righteous purposes and good pleasure. God designed it this way from the
      beginning so that no one could boast or complain (Rom 11:32-33).

      The
      fact that 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe) are saved in the tribulation is
      no coincidence.  Also, the fact all
      nations are represented in the Millennium is no coincidence either.  God saves a remnant from all nations or
      peoples (John 12:32, NKJV).  God saves
      whom He will (Mat 11:27) since all reject Him freely (Isa 53:3 & 6). 

      John Jurek

  2. I dont agree with calvinism never had never will.
    Just saying that the elect in Matthew 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    are those that have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST and do the will of the FATHER. If it be a jew or a greek doesn’t matter, Galatians 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.I hope I made my point clear cause I don’t want to further this discussion anymore.IN JESUS CHRIST NAME , AMEN.

  3. Hebrews 8
     1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
     2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
     3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
     4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
     5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
     6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
     7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
     8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
     9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
     10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
     11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
     12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
     13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.<<>>

  4. The ElectGod’s Chosen PeopleTo the Christians dispersed among the nations Peter writes: “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy” (1 Peter 2:9,10).What a privilege it is to be God’s chosen people. “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His own inheritance” (Psalm 33:12). On the last day, only God’s elect will be saved: “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matthew 24:31 // Mark 13:27).The concept of God’s chosen people is first found in the Old Testament. God chose Israel as His special people. “And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power” (Deuteronomy 4:37). “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6 // Deuteronomy 14:2).”But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its farthest regions, And said to you, ‘You are My servant, I have chosen you and have not cast you away; Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand'” (Isaiah 41:8-11).Who are God’s chosen people now? Jesus warned: “Many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14 // Matthew 20:16).Now that the promised Messiah has come, God’s chosen people are they who accept Him as Lord and Savior: “For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people'” (Acts 3:22,23). “Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened” (Romans 11:5-7).The election is no longer based on physical lineage, but on one’s relationship with the Messiah: “He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful” (Revelation 17:14).The election of physical Israel was but a sign of a higher spiritual election on the basis, not of the lineage of Abraham, but of the faith of Abraham. This was God’s plan even before the creation of the world. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved” (Ephesians 1:3-6).As Peter says in the salutation of his first letter, this election in Christ is based on the foreknowledge of God: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied” (1 Peter 1:1,2).Paul explains this more fully in his letter to the Romans. “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us” (Romans 8:28-34).”Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do” (Colossians 3:12,13).This election before the foundation of the world was in Christ, which means that we are part of God’s chosen people only if we are in Christ and remain in Him. Peter tells us how we can make our calling and election sure: “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:2-11).

    • Hi Jayjonsson – just curious if you read my paper “Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists”. In there I show how the term “the elect” is referring to Israel. Peter is writing to ethnic Jews. Sure, they are believers. However, they are elect because they are Jewish and not because they are believers. Rather than rewrite the entire paper I invite you to read the paper and then share which points you agree with and which ones you don’t.

      Blessings,

      Doug

  5. Who are the elect?In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, the angels “will gather his elect”. The word “elect” is translated from the Greek word “eklektos.” The Greek word “eklektos” is recorded 24 times in the New Testament manuscripts and it is translated either “the elect” or “the chosen.” So, who are the elect that Jesus is referring to in the Olivet Discourse?
    Some believe “the elect” is Israel others believe “the elect” is all believers.
    Whenever we have a question regarding what God means, we should always ask God for the answer. We do this by searching His Word to see what else He says on the topic. So, let’s examine Scripture to see what God says about His elect.
    For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of theelect [eklektos] those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect [eklektos]- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:21-31).
    If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, [eklektos] whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.  At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect [eklektos]–if that were possible… And he will send his angels and gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens (Mark 13:20-27).
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen [eklektos] (Matthew 20:16).
    “For many are invited, but few are chosen [eklektos]” (Matthew 22:14)
    And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen [eklektos] ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:6-8)
    The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen [eklektos] One” (Luke 23:35)
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.  What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektos]? It is God who justifies (Romans 8:29-33).
    Greet Rufus, chosen [eklektos] in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings. I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them (Romans 16:13-17).
    Therefore, as God’s chosen [eklektos] people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful (Colossians 3:12-15).
    I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect [eklektos] angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism (1 Timothy 5:21).
    Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect [eklektos], that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10).
    Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect [eklektos] and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness (Titus 1:1)
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect [eklektos] strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance (1 Peter 1:1-2).
    As you come to him, the living Stone–rejected by men but chosen [eklektos] by God and precious to him– you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message–which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy (1 Peter 2:4-10)
    The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth–and not I only, but also all who know the truth– because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever… The children of yourchosen [eklektos] sister send greetings (2 John 1:1-2, 13).
    They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen [eklektos] and faithful followers” (Revelation 17:14)As we can see in God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself.Therefore, when Jesus says – “for the sake of the elect,” “to deceive even the elect” and “ they will gather his elect” – He is referring to all believers.Therefore, Jesus was describing what “the elect” see during the Great Tribulation before His angels gather them at the trumpet call.For those who still believe “the elect” is Israel, not the Church, God’s Word says.What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did (Romans 11:7). 

  6. What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did (Romans 11:7).These words of GOD says it all.

    • So – who are the elect? The whole point of my paper is that the elect are not believers but the Jews. The many Scriptures you cite above I deal with in the paper showing that elect does not elect those called to eternal life. “The Elect – the chose” are the Jews. Some of them believe and some of them don’t. That is why Paul says in 2 Tim 2:10 that he endures all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation. The “elect in Romans 11:7 is the word ekloge which is a feminine singular noun and hence does not refer to a group of people but is actually the election – that is God’s choosing (of Abraham Isaac and Jacob). I detail all of that in the paper. The link to it is above. 

      God bless,

      Doug

  7. Doug, this was not a good idea.

    • Hi Rich,

      What was not a good idea? I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter – more than just an exhortation. 

      Blessings,

      Doug

  8. I do not believe most of the Calvinist teaching but to say Calvin was a heritic is a harsh judgement not worthy of a brother in Christ. Haven’t we all been wrong in some of our Biblical understanding? Haven’t you ever changed you mind on some Biblical concept? We ALL have. That means that you were wrong in what you formerly believed or you are wrong now!

    • Hello Sal,

      Calvin a heretic….well…he in fact did say that all who did not believe in his doctrine were heretics. Notice Calvin says: “The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…”
      Translation: if you deny this doctrine you are not pious (c.f. thesaurus.com = 
      Antonyms:atheist, impious, irreligious, sinful, wicked)
      So because I don’t hold to Calvin’s position he is calling me atheist,, impious, sinful, etc. That doesn’t seem right either. 

      Of course, I have changed my mind on things as we all have, but I didn’t burn people at the stake in the name of God, either. Calvin burned Servetus at the stake for being a “heretic” and it was Calvin who pressed the charges (as Dave Hunt eloquently details in his book “What Love is This?” Brother Sal, I would argue that we need to be honest about who Calvin was and the damage that his doctrine has caused many. He severely misrepresented God. I submit once again this quote from Calvin:

      “The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” (Calvin Institutes 3:21:5:06 all emphasis in this article is mine)” 

      God bless you!

      Doug

      • Good points, Calvin was messed up, for sure, but maybe I’m getting soft in my old age, I like to give people the benifit of the doubt.

        God bless you Doug, you are a good brother in Messiah Yeshua.

  9. Im afraid the so called doctrine of calvanism is by & large biblically correct. The road is narrow & only few will find it. There is no fear of God, Salvation has to be worked out with fear and trembling

    • Hi Jupeter,

      The reason that I posted this video is because I do not subscribe to Calvinism. Why don’t I? The whole point of my article “Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists” is because the word elect never means eternal life. Thus, Calvinism is completely wrong. I would love to discuss this more after you have had a chance to review my article which you can click above or watch the video. However, I think that Calvin is very clear as to what he wants to communicate to us when he says:

      The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.” (Calvin Institutes 3:21:5: 06 all emphasis in this article is mine)

      My goodness, that is not the God that I worship nor is it the God of the Bible. I fear that the tenents of Calvinism are absolutely wrong. Once you see that the many that are called and the few that are chosen – where the chosen are the Jews and their election is not unto eternal life (though they like everyone can put on the wedding garment) then you can see that it is the Jews who are “the elect”.

      God bless,

      Doug

      • Hi Doug,

        I am undecided on the issue of whether or not the Nephilim are half-man, half-angel hybrids. While the idea seems like it could be true from the Bible alone, NOT from questionable extra-biblical sources like “The Book of Enoch,” etc., the idea seems VERY CONSISTENT with CALVINIST theology. You speak out against Calvinism and I do NOT like the idea of it at all, to state my bias.

        Most people who promote the teaching of “Angelic-Human Hybrids” believe the Nephilim have NO chance for salvation, though I am not sure what your stance is on that specifically. It seems VERY CONSISTENT that if God could allow fallen angels to mate with human women and produce children who have NO chance of salvation, meaning they WILL end up in hell for ALL ETERNITY, why couldn’t God do the same to men and still be perfectly righteous???

        Since they can only “choose” to do evil, as they have demonic blood, how is this inconsistent with Calvinistic apologetics concerning “total depravity” and “limited atonement” of pure-blooded humans??? Most people promoting this theory seem to overlook these logical implications.

        Thus, the LORD would create (even by merely giving demons permission to do this) INCURABLY EVIL half-humans, half-demons just to destroy them and have them suffer for ALL ETERNITY with NO CHANCE of redemption??? It makes no moral sense to me! How would you answer this???

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