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Creation of Dimensions and Angels

When God says in the beginning He created the Heavens and the Earth, could He have just been talking about our heavens that include the stars and sky and the beginning of our dimension? He never addresses anything about angels or sons of God or His throne or His heaven or anything in His realm when talking about the creation in Genesis that I remember, so could He have already created His Heaven and the angels etc before that and just chose to tell us the story about the creation and beginning of our world and dimension since He left all of that out. It does say the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid in Job . I’m just wondering why we have to believe that the creation of the realm where God dwells and it’s inhabitants have to be included at the same time as the creation in Genesis when none of it is mentioned as the story is told. I have been a christian my whole life and just never thought that God’s realm was created at the same time as our realm because I don’t remember it being talked about in the bible. Maybe I’m missing verses that would dispute this. I look forward to your reply when you can get to it. Thanks again!

– Jon

The Bible does not articulate when God created the angels like it does with man. However, we can piece together some clues  from the book of Job 38 where we read:

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell [Me,] if you have understanding. (Job 38:4)
Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? (Job 38:5)
To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, (Job 38:6)
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7)
“Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; (Job 38:8)
When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; (Job 38:9)
When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; (Job 38:10)

 

He stretched a line upon it - the line over the earth between day and night

He stretched a line upon it

Notice that the earth is already up to day day two – we know this because the line has been stretched out upon it. The line was pointed out to me, by a brother (whose name I forget), to be the place where day and night meet on the earth as seen from space – it literally is a line passing over it.

Therefore, the angels appear to have been there at least on day two.  But were they there before that? This next part requires several verses to come to an understanding – I will give an abbreviated answer here but many of the proofs are discussed in my course on the Messianic Age which you can listen to here.

There is a currently a veil between the heavenly domain/realm and the earthly. We learn this from Isaiah 25:7 which states that the veil, which covers all nations, is going to be removed

And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. (Isa 25:7)
He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken. (Isa 25:8)

Isaiah also says in chapter 64:1 oh that you would rend the heavens and come down. We hear of the sky receding like a scroll in Isaia 34 and Revelation 6. The prophets also saw the heavens open on occasion (Ezekiel 1, Revelation 4, 19). Stephen also saw the heavens open when he was being stoned (Acts 7).

We also know that Satan was in Eden, the garden of God, which was associated with the mountain of God (Ezekiel 28:12-18). That mountain is the same mountain that we read about in Isaiah 14 (which Satan attempted to climb and sit upon) and it is also the same that is spoken of in Hebrews 12:22

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, (Heb 12:22)

The mountain of God is in fact the heavenly Jerusalem according to this verse.

Therefore, the abode of God was created when He created everything else and also that abode was in this domain/dimension before the fall. God walked in the cool of the evening in the Garden of Eden which is the same place that Satan was – and again, the mountain of God was located at the same place.  This means that God’s abode and man’s were in the same dimension and only split after the sentencing and casting out from the Garden with the way blocked to the tree of life. In other words, the casting out was not simply a spacial removal but a dimensional removal. The spiritual dimension was divorced from the natural/physical at that point and those two will be recombined when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and remains on the earth forever.

With all that in view we see that before the creation of the heavens and earth there was only God who existed in and of His own dimension. There was no other space out there, no black emptiness, no void – it was just God. There was only light for even darkness is something that He created (Isaiah 45:7). We also conclude that the traditional view that we have in which God’s abode in “heaven” has always been the original intent is wrong. God’s original intent was to dwell with His creatures on the earth! What we understand to be “heaven” in the Scriptures is in fact the Holy Mountain/Heavenly Jerusalem – which comes down to the earth in the age to come.  So we conclude that only God existed before Genesis 1:1. The current separation of God’s domain from man’s is only a temporary condition which was not in place when God declared everything to be very good. As for the angels, they were therefore created after the heavens and earth of Genesis 1:1 and were dwelling in the same domain as man until the separation of the two.

– Doug

 

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13 comments

  1. I had a question about the garden of eden and planet earth in the beginning. I know the garden was known as paradise, but what gets me is that god saw everything as being good. Was the garden superior to the rest of the earth in some way? Using my logic it sounds like the whole earth should have been a paradice. I have heard theories that say that the garden of eden was actually a different dimention, and when man sinned god removed that “higher” dimention. But that still does not explain why there was a designated “garden” in the VERY GOOD earth. I was wandering if you could elaborate? I hope the question wasn’t too confusing. Again I appreciate all that you are doing for the kingdom of god, God bless and good luck!

  2. lwgear
    I have thought about the ideas you wrote about thousands of times. I understand things pretty much the same way as you. You mentioned
    quantum science and that alone opens the door to an entirely new understanding off creation and our reality. Also I believe it offers a total revelation
    of knowing God and reality as being one, and of God being the only true existance. God is and was and is to come As the only actual one.
    God says ” I AM That I AM “, I AM all there was, I AM all there is and I AM all there ever will be.

  3. It is extremely hard for me to understand God as being localized. I understand that is why God appeared as the son of man. Solomon said that the heaven and the heaven of heavens can’t contain Him. How could God be all present in
    time and space if he has a body like a man? If God is all there is, then how can there exist anything outside of God.
    That is like saying that there is space and God, rather than saying all space and time + exist IN God. If before creation
    there was only God, Then after creation there is God and creation. Where did creation come from when only God
    exists? How can creation exist outside of God. But if God is all in all how can he exist separate? These among many
    other things, call in question that God is a man. Jesus said no one has seen God, But the prophet did say he saw the
    Appearance of God. Which he saw God as God wanted him to see Him. Like, as the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove
    when Jesus was baptized. I do not think the Holy Spirit is really a dove, but appeared as a dove the same way God
    appeared as a man. What do you think?

    • Hi,
      God of course, is the big exception to all generalities. He is infinite beyond our comprehension and any attempt to understand is based on what he has revealed. I am not saying that God has a body – the prophets are saying that. I am simply reporting what they have had revealed to them. Again, I don’t pretend to fully understand God – I simply want to embrace all that he has told me about himself through the Word. I explain a lot of these things in my book, Corrupting the Image – the chapters are available on this site. Ezekiel saw God as Adam – remember, God made Adam in His image – so, I believe that the conclusion that God looks like Adam (or vice versa) is the necessary conclusion. 

      Blessings to you!

  4. Please keep in mind that God has always been there and God’s creations may have always been there as well – I say this because time has no meaning in the spirit world.  

  5. UhOh, I think I missed something! I got your conclusion that GOD alone existed before the biblical creation story; what I failed to pickup on was, why the “sons of GOD” could not have been created before. I’ll reread again to see if I get the point next time…thanks for bothering to post, this is good stuff regardless whether I get it or not!

  6. This is something I’ve thought a lot about. Let me throw out some ideas and cast my reservations to the wind.
    I’m thinking that firmaments might be dimensions. They are mentioned 9 times in the first chapter of Genesis. Could that be a hint as to how many dimensions there really are? We know from Paul’s trip that there are at least 3 heavens. So maybe there are “major” dimensions on a universal scale, “minor” dimensions (like what the Prince of Persia was confined to), and “individual” dimensions like the scales God uses to open and close ears and eyes.
    Here’s something else to throw in the mix, just to insure I get burned at the stake. What if…what if we existed in some form (light) as a soul before the beginning of time? What if Satan’s task was to “interview” (I don’t know what else to call it) each of “us” so as to construct or assemble our “life script”? What if we were then presented with sins we could commit? Of course we wouldn’t know what sins were…so Jesus would “demonstrate” the consequences of our having chosen to sin, right there in heaven on the Cross in the midst of heaven. We’d see the separation caused between Father and Son, we’d see the cloud of felt darkness, we’d hear the silence…and we’d understand that sin wasn’t good. Nevertheless, (and perhaps this is where Satan got “carried away”) Satan would persuade us to go ahead and add countless sins to our “life script.”
    At the Fall, which we all observed as beings of light from the balcony, all memory of this script was erased. From then on, the impression of free will was stamped upon the fallen earth.
    All of this happening with the imposition and construction of dimensions and firmaments to make barriers between us and heaven, between us and Satan, between us and certain comprehensions.
    I’ll stop there, I hear a noisy crowd with torches outside my door!

    • If you go back up above you will see where Scripture talks about the veil being removed (Isaiah 25:7; 64:1, etc). The veil was not there before the fall and will not be there in the age to come. Therefore, there will be only one “dimension” in the age to come. There will no longer be a separation between God’s domain and ours – all will be one. Secondly, there were no angels before day one! I believe that is one of the major fallacies that solid Bible teachers have been passing along. We need to realize that only God is eternal – the angels are not. They exist in the time-space continuum (even if their “space” is a bit different). They did not exist before Genesis 1:1. They are not timeless, like God is. They are created and hence they exist in time. Clearly, Gabriel and Michael are older today than they were yesterday. However, they do not “grow old” like we do – that is because when we speak of growing old we are not just talking about having existed longer but we are thinking of the degeneration of our bodies that goes along with it. Angels are not subject to degeneration and so they do not grow old in that sense. However, they are growing older just by virtue of the fact that they have all existed for about 6000 years. At the time of Noah they were only about 1,600 years old. 
      I can appreciate you going out on a limb; however, there are sufficient passages in Scripture to give us a good idea of what happened before. Blessings!

      •  The verse that kicked off this line of thinking was Rev. 13:8 which suggests, to me, that Jesus was slain (in some  version, obviously not the blood and flesh one) before the foundations of the world. Given that time doesn’t exist in heaven, that means (to me) that everything that was, is and shall be is present then and there.
        Whatever form we were in God’s mind (a la Jeremiah in 1:5) I think the events I suggested could have taken place. I didn’t add (it gets complicated) that each time Jesus demonstrated what the consequences of our sin were, He also descended into Hades (thus our being buried with him) and we were resurrected with Him…then. The power to escape, to overcome each and every temptation and sin was provided….then.
        So what happened in 32 AD was the real event, in space-time.
        It’s hard to wrap our brain around how we were crucified with Christ. I think my thumbnail description provides an answer. We were crucified with Christ…in heaven before time began (perhaps as a sort of atom entanglement-quantum thing). The same event was played out in real time in 32 AD (where we were crucified with Christ…I would posit it happening during the darkness). And finally, it plays out in real time here and now, where we can die to ourselves and call upon the blood of Jesus to deliver us.
        So I don’t have a problem with there not being any dimensions during the pre-creation era. I see them as a product of the Fall. Many of them. Nor do I have an issue with there not being angels before time began. Whatever “we” were, it was enough to generate our “life script.”
        Everything being flushed from our rememberance at the time of the Fall a la Isaiah 65:17.
        This idea just came to me in the last couple of weeks. It ties together a lot of loose ends having to do with free will and predestination, among other thorny stuff.

      • Thanks for answering my question, I really appreciate it. I think the bible just fails to mention any timeline for when God’s other creations that dwell with Him were created (seraphims, sons of God, creatures in heaven from Rev). It very well could have been as you say but there definitely is no scriptural evidence from what was presented above as a to what part of the timeline. You are just fitting it where it seems logical based from your view that they were part of our supporting creation. Angels were created to be ministering spirits for us so your view makes sense as far as angels go. I agree the angels and other creations are not eternal and that when the earth was created those were already in existence which is what all the verses above seem to speak of. I just don’t think “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” has to be anything more than the earth and our solar system.  If the angels were created a day or so before Adam and Eve then Lucifer fell rather quickly you would have to agree since they were told to populate the earth and never even got started until they were out of the garden.

        14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
        15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

  7. Thank you Doug. I love the way you bring out the truth in a very simple way that is easy to understand. Ed Loving

  8. This makes a lot of sense. Thank you Doug for posting it.

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