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Rapture: Pre, Mid, Post? How Do You Know?

Rapture: Pre, Mid, Post? How Do You Know?

Jesus spoke about his return in Matthew 24:29-31. He mentioned four key elements: He will come in the air, 2) on the clouds, 3) will command his angels (with a trumpet like voice) 4) to gather his people. Paul gives the same elements in his summary in 1Thess 4:16-17). Pretrib believers assert that the two accounts are two different events separated by at least seven years. Post trib believers maintain that they are one and the same event (the second coming of Jesus in which he gathers his people). Look closely at the two passages and leave a comment as to what differences you see between them (if you are pre-trib) or similarities (if you are post-trib). If you are mid trib, tell us what you see.

Immediately after the tribulation…They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:29, 31)

 

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (1Thess 4:16-17)

Both passages have

  1. Jesus coming in the air,
  2. On clouds
  3. He gives a command that sounds like a trumpet (note: Jesus speaks like a trumpet in Rev 1 and when God descended on Mt Sinai there was a trumpet
  4. people are picked up and gathered together

A matter must be established by two or three witnesses according to Scripture…Are these are the two different events (pret-rib) or the same event (post-trib). Please leave your comments below.

 

 

 

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36 comments

  1. Their both pre wrath doug 🙂 same event !!

  2. I invite all to Google “Famous rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” and “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.”

  3. Thoughtful Speculation

    Ponder these scriptures for a bit in regards to the timing of the “rapture (s):

    Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

    Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

    “And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch”

    Consider: In His teachings, was our Lord Jesus referring to more than “one” coming for His people…ie: the reference to the “second watch” and “third watch”…..?

    These scriptures would fit in line with other scripture saying:

    “Mar 13:33 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    “ye know not when the time is”…the “watch’ time

    I would suggest that many believers are not “watching” right now, nor shall they be watching until spiritual reality smacks them in the face…… they being caught up in the cares of the world…politics, money, churchianity etc…so, if Christ were to come not too far from now, they would be caught sleeping rather than watching. …And, would have missed their “day of visitation”. However, once they realise their sins of foolishly loving the world more than loving Christ, repent, and come to their senses, they *may* be ready at the “second” or even the “third watch”.

    Also, I am of the belief that the Antichrist/Beast must appear before any catching away takes place…according to what Paul wrote in 2nd Thess 2:
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    We are certainly seeing a falling away now…..
    And before any sort of coming of the Lord, the Beast must be revealed first on the world scene according to what these scriptures say.
    Thoughts?

  4. mid…

  5. The answer is: they both are talking about the same event! I have a
    question for the Pre-tribs and most Post-tribs, where in Gods word does
    it say that the entire 70th week of Daniel is a “tribulation period”? You cannot minimize or belittle the “Day of the Lord”, Gods wrath, by lumping it under this umbrella term “tribulation period”. There is a clear biblical distinction between “the wrath of satan/ antichrist (great tribulation) and the “Day of the Lord”. God will cut short the great tribulation (Matt. 24:22) at an unknown day or hour and then the rapture. The rapture initiates the “Day of the Lord”. This same theme is repeated in Mark and Luke with the same sequence of events and confirms the teaching of Paul to the Thessalonian church.

    • Christopher Tackett

      I agree with this timing:

      First 3.5 yrs = opening of Seals 1-4; beginnings of New World Order – wars & rumors of wars, financial collapses, etc.

      Second 3.5 yrs = opening of the Seal 5; Satan’s wrath (not God’s wrath) upon the saints begins and is cut short, otherwise no one would survive. Antichrist & False Prophet revealed. NWO & Mark of the Beast established.

      Opening of Seal 6: cuts short Satan’s wrath and signals the Day of the Lord (God’s wrath); great earthquake, sun, moon, stars darkened because of smoke/ash; Pre-wrath rapture

      Opening of Seal 7, with 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, equals God’s Wrath.

      Christ’s 1000 Millennial Reign

    • THIS SHOCKING VIDEO PROVES WITHOUT A DOUBT A PRE-TRIB rapture IS GOING TO SUDDENLY HAPPEN IN THE COMING MONTHS IN MY OPINION.
      IF YOU OBSERVE WORLD EVENTS, THEN YOU KNOW FULL WELL THE WORLD IS NOW CRUMBLING RIGHT BEFORE OUR VERY EYES.
      IT’S THOSE BRAINWASHED INDIVIDUALS, WHO CAN’T SEE WE’RE LIVING IN THE END TIMES BECAUSE THEY’RE POSSESSED BY THEIR STUPID CELLPHONES.
      THE DEMONIC ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY IS FLOODING THE AIRWAVES NOW WITH THEIR SATANIST PROPAGANDA TO BRAINWASH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
      THESE PSYCHOPATHS REFUSE TO LEAVE THEIER SELF IMPOSED BUBBLE BECAUSE THEY’RE TERRIFIED OF REALITY.
      THE LUKEWARM CHURCH WILL BE LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE OF THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE HOLY BIBLE…WAKE UP

      !https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o9qOsJFSRo

  6. I think Perry Stone (pre-tribber) has a good few lessons on this just about now. He calls the “Post-Trib” the U-turn rapture, with the idea, that the ones who are raptured are the same ones who comes down with Yeshua to fight at Harmageddon. Then there’s the comparison with John 14:1-> thinking that we at least should come home before we settle up to go down to fight again, which in his idea, makes the post-trig kind of ridiculous. There’s of course much more to his argument of a pre-trib rapture.

    Then we have Kent Hovind who says that he has gone from pre-trig to post-trib, after teaching/believing in pre-trig for 40 years (His video on that is on youtube since he FINALLY got out, PRAISE THE LORD ALL MIGHTY).

    * In the first part we have “The Tribulation” who most think lasts 7 years with the A-C breaking the covenant by his abomination of desolation after 3,5 years. Then we have “the Elect” who we need to understand which we are talking about. Are they the 144 000 virgin jews left through the tribulation? All the converts that will turn to Christ during the tribulation and with the help of the two witnesses?

    In the second part nothing is clear.
    I think the “then WE who are alive” was the part were the church in Thessalonica got hook upon and scared that they had missed, and that’s why Paul is trying to ease their minds in the 2nd (actually 3rd) letter/epistle to them.

    Of course there is much more… but I think that we need a Godly signed pattern for us to understand. Patterns are all over in the OT.

  7. Hey! Doug to keep a very long story short,

    I mentioned in my previous life to other people that Jesus is the Son of God but I was not vigilant enough or too gullible and had the greatest possible difficulty with many things in life

    But when I really needed help (seven months ago), God sent Jesus to my sinful life and now I’m blessed with his wisdom and love and forgiveness and that can be nothing other than the Holy Spirit!

    Many people try to get me out of the light, but I laugh and enjoy and thank Jesus

    I am very grateful to God of Israel for his protection in my previous life, I was so ignorant. Look out friends. there are really dangerous people in this world who play nasty games with dangerous intentions but i forgive them all, i had to (eg, pretend they are believers but only use it to gain confidence )
    I have so far not need a church I see enough miracles around me.Now I read constantly with much love the Bible, but in my previous life, I read only if I saw no way out or as a kind of power when people hurt me.,
    continue with this open mind! I’m on fire when I look at your broadcast, thanks! its helps me

  8. You will find the following 3-part study by Chuck Missler helpful in determining the truth of the matter:

    1) Our Blessed Hope: http://www.khouse.org/articles

    2) The Wedding Model: http://www.khouse.org/articles

    3) The Harpazo: http://www.khouse.org/articles

    MARANATHA!

  9. It’s actually rather simple. Let’s look closely at what 1 Thessalonians tells us.

    “…the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    With this teaching, Paul establishes beyond all controversy that the rapture and the resurrection occur at the same moment – within mere seconds of one another.

    Therefore, it only stands to reason that where we find the resurrection, we have found the rapture. They are contiguous events.

    “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority
    to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been
    beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those
    who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its
    mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned
    with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.” Revelation 20: 4-5

    Please note that this is the FIRST resurrection. If it is indeed the first resurrection, then there cannot have been a resurrection prior to it. Not seven years prior to it. Not even seven minutes prior to it. Otherwise, this would not be the first. And if we have found the resurrection, then we have found the rapture. The two events cannot be separated.

  10. The Antichrist (man of sin, son of perdition) will be revealed BEFORE the Great Tribulation, which takes place PRIOR TO the Messiah’s second coming. – Matthew 24:15-16; Mark 13:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

    The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th trumpets (Birth Pains) then 5th, 6th trumpets (Great Tribulation) in Revelation 8-9 will be sounded BEFORE the last trumpet (7th trumpet) in Revelation 11 is sounded PRIOR TO the “rapture” at the Messiah’s second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27

  11. My comment is that these texts are taken out of context. As to whom the Lord speaks? To the church that did not exist or against the Jews?

    That will have to determine first before one can speak at any time the church is removed.

    First of all, there is a warning to the false messiah because as said to be in the desert and someone needs to go there.

    So it is directed to the Jews. Not to us as the tribes who mourn when we see our groom but pleased to meet him .

    • The real problem is that you are reading The Bible through a filter Willem. In fact, you require that filter to be in place before any one can even understand The Bible. That grid is called Dispensationalism and it says “oh, this verse isn’t written to Christians, it’s for Jews” or “this verse isn’t written to Jews, it’s for Christians”. This is why there is so much confusion. Because you have a set of presuppositions in place already through which you read The Bible. In fact, if you didn’t have those presuppositions in place, there is no way on earth you would ever come up with those interpretations. In other words, before we can accept your interpretations, we have to ask a MUCH larger question. And that question is this: “Are the presuppositions of Dispensationalism even correct?” If the answer is no – and I contend that the answer IS no – then your whole interpretive framework falls apart.

  12. Obviously two different events, pre-trib rapture (1 Thesss 4:16-17) and at the end of the tribulation (Matt 24:29,31 and Mark 13). The pre-trib research center covers these verses and Mark 13 extensively: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/matthew-2431-rapture-or-second-coming

    • Why do you need a pre-trib research center if it is so clear in the Bible? We don’t need a Jesus-is-coming-again research center because that is clearly in the Bible. Can you just give us a verse that tells us the timing?

      • Your last three posts got only two comments in total (both mine!), yet this one has 23 comments. (!)

        Why is it that believers are so caught up with the rapture? There’s so much more in Scripture than just the Rapture and yet it occupies so much effort (think of all the work that must have gone into the Pre-Trib Research Center). And though I guess I’m pre-wrath, I don’t have any strong feelings either way about it, really. …And if The Lord shows up today and tells me it’s time to go home, I certainly won’t be telling Him He’s got His eschatology wrong. 😉

  13. The 2 passages are talking of different events.In the 1st passage the gathering is from heaven, and there are no dead in Christ in heaven. In the 2nd passage there is a gathering of the dead in Christ from their graves on earth and those still alive will be taken up also.

    Well, let’s throw in another one.

    Mark13 (NIV)

    “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. ” And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

    Sounds like a single gathering to me.

  14. When I hear people say “The Bible says….” – filling in the blank with a particular bible verse to support their actions or views – my response so often is “The Bible says a lot of things”. If by adulthood all a Christian will do is accept other people’s opinions and interpretations on a particular subject such as rapture or predestination, never “testing” as Paul instructed us to do in all things pertaining to the God’s word, never investigating on their own, they should consider themselves ignorant; Christians maybe, but ignorant Christians. The best way to come to one’s own conclusions
    is to read educated scholars and theologians, great authors, pastors, and commentators to study EACH AND EVERY SIDE of the argument, then gather all scripture that pertains to a subject and investigate the Bible on their own. And most importantly, pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance in discernment and revelation. There was a long period in church history when most Christians believed in post-tribulation rapture. Now it is per-tribulation rapture. And still many believe in the half mark
    tribulation rapture. I am studying the subject intensely right now which is what brought me to this article. And although I would say every Evangelical
    Christian I know is a Pre-bee, I am beginning to have doubts about that the
    deeper I look into it. But what I do know, is that the mind-set of most modern Christians, especially Americans, is that they don’t have to, and even that they should not… SUFFER. People think having to hire homosexuals at a Chic-Filet is straight-up persecution, and it is, but to a small extent. I believe the persecution of Christians, the real mental and physical suffering that the Bible speaks of, isn’t only for
    people who become Christians after the rapture, but for Christians in
    general. We already see what is going on in other parts of the world and I think that the extent to which we feel persecution in this country today is nothing compared to what is to come. We will look back and think about how easy we had it. I believe it’s going to come not
    only from within our U.S. boarders, but outside of them too. To think that we should go unscathed and not have
    to suffer in unimaginable ways for our faith is not only naive, it is an insult
    to our Lord. Not only could we suffer,
    but we should welcome it if we do. Our
    God was tortured and hung on a cross for us.
    Our Christian forefathers watched thousands of Christians being slaughtered
    at one time. Woman and children
    included. They were hung upside down on
    crosses, burned at the stake, had their heads cut off, and tortured in incomprehensible
    ways for their Lord and Savior. I say
    there is no better way to go. No matter
    when and how the rapture takes place, I am happy to be a part of the
    tribulation if that is what God so chooses.
    And I feel that while seeking knowledge and being mentally and
    spiritually prepared for whatever is to come, leading people to Jesus Christ
    should be our number one goal right here right now.

  15. The 2 passages are talking of different events.In the 1st passage the gathering is from heaven, and there are no dead in Christ in heaven. In the 2nd passage there is a gathering of the dead in Christ from their graves on earth and those still alive will be taken up also. There is NO taking up of living believers at the end of the great tribulation, because all believers alive at that time go into the 1,000 rule with flesh bodies to repopulate the earth during that 1,000 year time.

    • “In the 1st passage the gathering is from heaven, and there are no dead in Christ in heaven.”

      The use of the phrase “the four winds” is a way of saying they will be gathered to Him from all across the face of the earth. It’s a euphemism. We used to use it when I was growing up. As my cousins grew older, they all moved to different parts of the US. My grandmother would say they were “scattered to the four winds”. It is not a reference to gathering those who are in heaven because they are already gathered and are WITH Jesus – descending with Him as He comes…”Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.”

    • What verse do you base that on? How do you know? Again, you have asserted something without any proof.

    • So who are the dead crying out from the alter if there are no dead in Christ in Heaven?

  16. A Question: why isnt the church mentioned of on the earth after Revelation 3? It mntions the Saints and peole turning to Christ during the Tribulation/Revelation… Enoch Was taken..While Noah went thru the flood…The Jewish wedding…In My opinion The pre-tribulation will get much worse(not the rapture End Time Events Before the Rapture) I dont see why non-pre-trib-rapture folks are so anti pre-trib when I see examples from all points of view in Scripture…If we dont go..how does that change my witness now? If I believe that the Rapture is imminent then I believe that the Tribulation is imminent as well..how does changing the time change the urgency of The message?

    • excuse The typos and HELLO! lol.

    • “A Question: why isnt the church mentioned of on the earth after Revelation 3? It mentions the Saints and peole turning to Christ during the Tribulation/Revelation.”

      The word ‘trinity’ isn’t found in The Bible at all. But the concept most definitely is. We deduce it by putting together ALL that The Bible says about The Godhead.

      The phrase ‘eternal security’ isn’t found in The Bible either. But many Christians believe the principle is found there in the doctrines of grace.

      The mere fact that John doesn’t use the word church does NOT mean the church isn’t present in Revelation. The saints ARE the church…as are all of those who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation. All of them are saved by faith in JESUS…the same way anyone is saved. Therefore, they are all part of Christ’s body…which IS the church. Those who are born again – who belong to Christ – ARE the church. Regardless of when they are saved they are Christians and therefore part of the church. You guys have been listening to dispensational hoodoo voodoo for so long that you cannot read The Scriptures without a veil of confusion fogging over what is very simple terminology.

  17. Hello Bro. Doug, my name is Hayden Hendrix and I serve as associate pastor at a church in Arkansas. Please email me at my registration form to discussion. I would like to talk with you for a few minutes when time allows.

    I have throughly enjoyed your videos. A whole new world has opened up to me. The expression “I was never taught this in seminary” is an understatement.

    Many Blessings!

    p.s. I think a saw a typo on next to last sentence of the end of your query about pre or post positions. Please disregard if I’m mistaken as I’m the king of typos.

  18. What I see is that we endure tribulation, Paul states that the dead in Christ will rise first. Jesus says after tribulation, but I think a lot of people get wrath and tribulation confused. We are not assigned wrath, but Jesus clearly says we will be hated and killed for his name. So some of those dead in Christ could be from tribulation. But to your question, yes both passages seem to confirm each other, don’t they. So I don’t see how it could be anything but the same event.

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