Thursday , 30 October 2014

The Angelic Domain: Created Before Genesis 1:1 or After?

Many have suggested that God created the angels before the creation of the heavens and earth. Did He create them outside of time and space? The simple answer is no and here is why. Before anything was, before the blackness of space, before the void, there was the King, the Almighty, the Self-Existent, the One who was, and is and is to come. He existed in and of his own domain. God wasn’t “anywhere” because there was no “where”. There was only God. Nevertheless, He created from nothing a space, a domain outside of Himself that was not. This expanse, dimension, He called shamaim (or heavens). He filled this domain with substance, material called eretz (earth). We can think of the heavens like a water bottle filled with water (eretz).  Imagine God by Himself, of Himself, bringing forth from Himself a dimension, a void, filled with only eretz also called ‘tehom’ the ‘depth’ which had not been before. However, on that first day, the earth was only in the process of being formed. This is why God paused and explained what He meant by ‘water’. [1] He did not mean the ball of soil, dirt, land, that Adam stood on when his eyes opened and beheld God. Eretz – earth on the first day was in fact water. [2]

From that water God formed the light to fill the darkness which He also created (Isa 45:7). The first day was the beginning of differentiations. Before the creation there was no differentiation (outside of God Himself and His indescribable tri-unity). On that first day God created things that were not. He created a space outside of Himself; He created darkness which had never been (Isa 45:7) for God is light and there is no darkness in Him whatsoever (I John 1:5). Thus the absence of His glorious light in the newly created void was new and different which is why the King revealed by the prophet Isaiah ‘I form the light and create darkness’. Until that moment darkness, (the absence of light) did not exist.

Therefore before day one (or Genesis 1:1) there was God and because He is light there was no such thing as darkness. When He created the void, space, it initially was devoid of God’s light and did not even have created photons. When God said ‘let there be light’ is the moment when God created the particle-waves known as photons.

We can see, therefore, that before the creation of a domain and substance, there was no place even for the angels. Their creation is not clearly detailed like the creation of Adam, however we can piece together some clues from the book of Job: “Where were you when I laid the

foundations of the earth?…Who determined its measurements? …Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7). Job 38 has day two in mind because the line had been stretched out upon it. The line (was pointed out to me, by a brother whose name I forget), is where day and night meet on the earth as seen from space – there literally is a line passing over it. The angels were obviously there and were observers of what God was doing while not dependent on the earth (like man would be). This is the earliest evidence we have of the angels. We hear nothing of them before this.

The next thing we have to consider is that before the fall of man there was only one domain in which the spiritual (angels, God) would exist with the physical (Adam). The one domain was split in two because of the fall of man. We know this because there is currently a veil between the heavenly domain/realm and the earthly. We learn this from Isaiah 25:7 which states that the veil, which covers all nations, is going to be removed. “And He will destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces…” (Isa 25:7-8). Isaiah also says “oh that you would rend the heavens and come down.” (Isa 64:1) We hear of the sky receding like a scroll in Isaiah 34 and Revelation 6. The prophets also saw the heavens open on occasion (Ezekiel 1, Revelation 4, 19). Stephen also saw the heavens open when he was being stoned (Acts 7).

We also know that Satan was in Eden, the garden of God, which was associated with the mountain of God (Ezekiel 28:12-18). That mountain is the same mountain that we read about in Isaiah 14, which Satan attempted to climb and sit upon the “mountain of the congregation.” It is also the same that is spoken of in Hebrews “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels.” (Heb 12:22). The mountain of God is in fact the heavenly Jerusalem according to this verse and others.

Therefore, the mountain of God was created when He created everything else and also that abode was in a common domain/dimension before the fall. God walked in the cool of the evening in the Garden of Eden, which is the same place where Satan was – the mountain of God. Eden and the mountain of God are closely connected.  This means that God’s abode and man’s were in the same domain and only split after the sentencing and casting out from the Garden with the way blocked to the tree of life. In other words, the casting out was not simply a spatial removal but a dimensional shift. The spiritual domain was divorced from the natural/physical at that point and those two will be recombined when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and remains on the earth forever.

With all that in view we see that before the creation of the heavens and earth there was only God who existed in and of His own dimension. There was no other space out there, no black emptiness, no void –just God. There was only light for even darkness is something that He created (Isaiah 45:7). We also conclude that the traditional view of God dwelling “up there” and Adam being “down here” is not accurate. Nor is the belief that we will dwell “up there” in heaven for eternity.  What we understand to be “heaven” in the Scriptures is in fact the Holy Mountain/Heavenly Jerusalem – which comes down to the earth in the age to come.  So we conclude that only God existed before Genesis 1:1; the angels did not exist before then. The current separation of God’s domain from man’s is only a temporary condition which was not in place when God declared everything to be very good. As for the angels, they were therefore created after the heavens and earth of Genesis 1:1 (day two appears to be when they were created) and they were dwelling in the same domain as man until the separation of the two domains. God’s original intent was to dwell with His creatures on the earth. Corruption (sin) and death impeded that intent for several thousand years. Nevertheless, God will bring His original intent to pass and will dwell with mankind forever from His holy mountain, which will be on the earth – a place in which God, angels, and man will all dwell together.

Many of the proofs are discussed in my course on the Messianic Age which you can listen to here.


[1] “The disjunctive clause (conjunction + subject + verb) at the beginning of v. 2 gives background information for the following narrative, explaining the state of things when “God said…” (v. 3)…. Some translate 1:2a “and the earth became,” arguing that v. 1 describes the original creation of the earth, while v. 2 refers to a judgment that reduced it to a chaotic condition. Verses 3ff. then describe the re-creation of the earth. However, the disjunctive clause at the beginning of v. 2 cannot be translated as if it were relating the next event in a sequence. If v. 2 were sequential to v. 1, the author would have used the vav consecutive followed by a prefixed verbal form and the subject.” NET Bible Notes on Genesis 1:2.

[2] “That is, what we now call “the earth.” The creation of the earth as we know it is described in vv. 9-10. Prior to this the substance which became the earth (= dry land) lay dormant under the water.” NET Bible Notes on Genesis 1:2.

The Millennium Chronicles

 

The Millennium Chronicles
absence of light angels creation of adam Creation of evil garden of eden Isaiah 45:7 millennium new earth new heavens time and space when were the angels created

About Doug Hamp

  • JOAOZINHO da S. F. A. MARTINS

    Certainly all what is stated as above in the Article is based more upon speculation rather than upon theBible. Without delving deeply into the same, I would like to state that it is of no use at all in using grammatical terms to support one’s unbiblical speculations. For example, to state that the “disjunctive clause at the beginning of v. 2 cannot be translated as if it were relating the next event in a sequence”, and that, accordingly, it disproves any gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is untenable. According to John A. Cook, Asbury Theological Seminary, “The centuries-old view that the Biblical Hebrew verbal forms appear with two distinct vav conjunctions that not only signal relationships between clauses but affect the semantics of the verb forms themselves is disappearing from grammars. However, this slow demise has created a pedagogical gap where previously the notion of “verbal sequences” served in tandem with the idea of two vav conjugations to describe the various inter-clausal relationships exhibited in Biblical Hebrew (e.g., conjunctive, conjunctive–sequential, disjunctive, epexegetical; see Waltke and O’Connor 1990: 650, who in turn cite Lambdin 1971]”. As such, debatable Biblical Hebrew grammatical nuances are fallible and cannot be relied upon to substantiate any argument against pre-Adamic life on earth.
    Visit:> http://christianreading.com/jmartins/

  • Gatsby

    Hello and God bless you brother i just finished watching your video,
    The Angelic Domain: Created Before Genesis 1:1 or After?

    I must say that when God first created the heavens created the angels with it then the earth and so forth so the angels where created first since they where there during the creation of the earth and man.

    Second you mentioned that you wasn’t sure why God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden and didn’t permit them eat again from the tree of life. My thoughts on that matter is as following, If Adam or Eve would’ve ever had eaten again from the fruit of live, knowing good and bad they would be able to live eternity again but with there sinful ways intact and God then would have no choice to destroy all human kind forever. Just imagine how our world is today imagine it today but men living eternity, it would have been 10 times badder then it is today plus no one will ever die, and evil would exist for ever.

    God is good and since he knows everything and what the future holds it was better that he cast them out and didn’t permit them back into Eden, and that is my thought take care brother and God bless you.

  • Sandi

    I was of the understanding that God ‘said’, and these things came into being.

  • Sandi

    Is this what it means when they say, “iron sharpens iron?”

  • Pingback: The Angelic Domain and the Fall of Satan (Video) - DouglasHamp.com

  • Pingback: Views of Biblical Creation - DouglasHamp.com

  • Pingback: The Angelic Domain and Fall of Satan DVD Now Shipping - DouglasHamp.com

  • Mart

    In the beginning was God,
    God is Father, Son(Word) and Holy Spirit (Archangel Michael*Note Michael means like God)
    Man was created on the six day in the image of God that is with an angel.
    Man’s angel were created on the sixth day.
    If God is in all then everything before was of God.
    God didn’t reach out of God’s self to create creation, but created within God’s self.
    e.g. If a container full of steam which fills that container is cooled down you would have water or ice creating space for eveything else. Matter is compressed energy, just as water is condensed water vapour.. If all the matter was turned back into energy then there would not be any space in the universe.

  • qaton

    I’m sorry but Hamp’s the
    primary assertion is boldly stated but never proven. Mr. Hamp, in
    the first paragraph, makes the assertion that “before anything was” is the
    same as “before the blackness of space” by joining the terms. How
    does he know this is true? Where does he get this
    information? How does he know that there was only God at one point
    in the past (to which I agree), and then an immediate jump to the creation of
    the physical in Gen 1.1 “In the beginning?” The “In the beginning”
    refers to this physical heavens and earth, but why does he assume that it must
    apply to any form of creation such as the angelic (non-physical) creation?

    Then in the fourth
    paragraph Hamp restates his unproven proposition from the first paragraph. There was no proof ever given for this primary
    assertion. He merely states in the first paragraph that “before
    anything was” is the same as before the physical creation, which he has no
    proof for, and then runs with the assertion/assumption. After the
    initial assertion, he clouds the logical flow with some other information, but
    nonetheless makes a logical jump that has not been proven, and that cannot be substantiated.

    It is essential that Hamp
    prove this or his entire proposition is without a foundation.

    • douglashamp

      Hello Qaton (that
      means “little”?)

      Thanks for leaving
      your thoughts. I will clarify my position. First of all, I don’t think that it
      is untenable to start with a premise that God was before his creation.
      Secondly, Scripture says “He himself existed before anything else did, and
      he holds all things together.” (Col 1:17 ISV) This seems very
      clear to me that God was alone before Genesis 1:1.
      John reiterates that fact: “Through him all things were made,
      and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:3
      ISV) Next, notice the A then B structure of creation in Nehemiah 9 “You
      are the Lord; you alone crafted the heavens, the highest heavens with all of their
      armies” So, God made the heavens with all of their armies (angels).
      Notice the structure goes on: ” the earth, and everything in it; the
      seas, and everything in
      them; you keep giving all of them life, and the army of heaven continually
      worships you.” (Neh 9:6 ISV) Essentially, we have a scenario
      of building the house first and then fill it with furniture. This same
      structure is also in Rev 10:6 “He swore an oath by the one who lives
      forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and
      the sea and everything in
      it: “There will be no more delay. (Rev 10:6 ISV)

      Lastly, we have
      strong evidence from Ps 148 where we see that the angels are mentioned with all
      of the other things of creation. “Hallelujah! Praise the Lord from
      heaven; praise him in the highest places. Praise him,
      all his angels; praise him, all his
      armies! Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him,
      you heaven of heavens, and you waters above the heavens. Let them praise the
      name of the Lord, for he himself gave the command that they be created. He
      set them in place to last forever and ever; he gave the command and will not
      rescind it. (Ps 148:1-6)

      Let me leave you with one more thing to consider. In Ezekiel 28:12 it says that the anointed cherub (Satan) was in Eden, the garden of God and he was on the holy mountain of God. I submit to you that before the veil came between heaven and earth (see Isaiah 25:7) – which by the way, is coming down when the Lord returns, the spiritual domain (“heaven”) and the terrestrial domain were one.

      One final clarification; there was a time before the blackness of space because, 1) God created space (heavens) and 2) God created darkness (Isaiah 45:7).

      I will have my DVD presentation on this topic coming out soon and I hope the full exposition will demonstrate my position.

      Take care,

      Doug

      • qaton

        You misunderstood what I
        said. I did not say that it was an
        untenable premise to have an extant God before His creation. I even stated as much very plainly when
        I wrote “How does he know that there was only God at one point
in the past (to
        which I agree), and then an immediate jump to the creation of
the physical in
        Gen 1.1 “In the beginning?”.” I plainly
        said “to which I agree” in regards to God being present prior to Gen 1.1. Who would argue that a non-existent God
        created something? Quite
        illogical. What I said was that
        you make an unproven, illogical jump in stating that there was only God alone,
        and then the first creative act being the Gen 1.1 creation.

        John 1.1-3 does not
        reiterate that “fact” of God being alone before the Gen 1.1 creation. Nothing of the sort, and it appears
        that you are reading meaning into texts that is not there. The solitariness of God at Gen 1.1 is
        not implied in Joh 1.1, and it certainly not a fact to be derived from Joh
        1.1.

        The Neh 9.6 passage has
        two possibilities. First, the
        passage states, “thou hast made the heaven, the Heaven of heavens, with all
        their host.” The separation of
        heaven, and Heaven of heavens, may be a precursor statement to the third heaven
        that Paul describes in 2Co 12.2.
        And it is that third Heaven, the spiritual abode that the angels
        originally were created within and there they abode until the fallen were cast
        out. All this very likely occurred
        prior to Gen 1.1. Furthermore,
        hosts can refer to the sun, moon and stars, not just angels as you assume. Therefore, the hosts that are in the
        heavens, can be referring to the physical entities that inhabit the heavens
        (sun, moon, stars), just like fish
        in the sea, and cattle on land. In
        fact the passage seems to strongly indicate that the host spoken of are of a
        similar nature to the sea and that within (physical stuff), and the earth and
        that within (physical stuff) and likely the heavens and that within (physical
        stuff). So on multiple fronts you
        cannot use Neh 9 to justify thinking that angels were created at Gen 1.1. The text does not support that doctrine
        at all, and it is only derived from other places by unjustly reading doctrine
        into texts.

        Finally, I think you
        really play fast and loose with the scripture. Reading Eze 28.12 and Isa 25.7 don’t lead one to the
        conclusions that you come to, unless someone is attempting to twist one verse
        to prove some various wind of doctrine (by the sleight of men in
        craftiness).

        • douglashamp

          Hi Qaton,

          I have offered you a solution but you haven’t offered any. When would you say, from Scripture, that the angels were created? I suspect that you hold to a Gap theory position which might be why you are so adamant against the angels being created after Genesis 1:1. You have accused me of attempting to deceive people and being sloppy in my scholarship. Well, I am far from perfect. However, could you suggest a better alternative from Scripture?

          Take care,

          • qaton

            Mr. Hamp,

            I have offered no solution, and cannot, because the scripture
            (from what I can see, but I am open for instruction) offers none. I worship God in Spirit and in Truth (Joh 4.23). Since the scripture is Truth, I do not go beyond
            Scripture in my faith, I seek to obey God when He commands “Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded
            you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. Ye shall walk in
            all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you…” (Deu
            5.32-33). Also, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye
            diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God
            which I command you.” (Deu 4.2). I
            do not engage in fanciful wild speculations.
            If I do speculate, I am very, very careful to state it as my educated
            speculation, upfront with a large disclaimer to make sure that Qaton’s thoughts
            are never considered the Holy Word of God in the eyes of any reader or hearer
            (I am nothing). Speculation is from the heart of man, and God does not have too
            many good things to say about those prophets and teachers who speak from their
            heart and go beyond the Word of God.
            Someone saying “thus saith the Lord,” when the Lord hath not said is in
            grave danger. They are of the false
            prophets of the OT and the false teachers of the NT. These men walk according to their vain
            imaginations and not according to Truth.
            Hear God’s Word concerning these men “But
            they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in
            the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.”
            (Jer 7.24), “Thus saith the LORD of
            hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they
            make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth
            of the LORD.” (Jer 23.16), and finally “But
            there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false
            teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying
            the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And
            many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth
            shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
            make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and
            their damnation slumbereth not.” (2Pe 2.1-3). Frankly, I would be quite fearful of putting
            out teaching that smacks of “vain imaginations,” “adding to God’s Word,” “a
            vision of my own heart,” “feigned words for the purpose of merchandising souls.” Those men’s judgment is soon approaching and
            there is Hell to pay for those proud men who do as such.

            I do not hold to the gap theory.
            I believe in an actual six (“morning and the evening”) days of creation
            as stated in the Holy Word of God.

            My accusations of sloppiness only apply if you make positive doctrinal
            declarations, without propositional truth to support it. How could I be honest before my God and not
            call a lie a lie?

            I am far from perfect also, the key is, am I willing to repent?

          • qaton

            Well I think my work on this topic is complete based upon the non-response from Mr. Hamp. I am hopeful that in the future, as Mr. Hamp
            likely continues his speculative foray into the unrevealed, the true Word of
            God will ring in his heart and cause him to turn from this foolishness.

            I haven’t decided yet, but I may begin to address Mr. Hamp’s promotion
            of false doctrines under his anti-Calvinist genre. I am not a Calvinist, in fact I see Calvin as
            an unsaved man judging by some of his doctrinal statements, but I do know that
            salvation is of God, and God alone. God
            saves those that He chooses and man’s will has nothing to do with his salvation
            either in earning, or in keeping himself saved.
            Salvation is of the Lord. Any man
            who thinks that they meet any condition that then makes them saved is unsaved
            and believing a false gospel.

            The reason for my indecision is that it is quite time consuming
            and I have much other work to do. Discussions
            with the free-willists (the Arminians and their brother Roman Catholics and
            Orthodox) usually end the same way, I get kicked off their site and disallowed
            from ever returning. I am never removed
            for anything but preaching the truth from the Word of God, but that is too much
            for them to stomach. They do love their
            pride. And the scripture is found true
            again when it says “…yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will
            think that he doeth God service. And
            these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor
            me.” Just as Jesus’ hometown folks tried
            to push him off a cliff, so too those preaching the truth of the sovereignty of
            God and the inability of man get tossed off for dead (as it were).

          • douglashamp

            It sounds like you have much work to do fighting with so many people who are confused. Perhaps I should be honored that you took time out of your busy schedule to come and post here.

  • Steve

    Nowhere does it say that God created anything out of pre-existing or pre-created substance or matter. Light was not created from water, nor was water created from light. Everything which was created by God was created ex nihilo … from nothing. God did not even use ‘nothing’ to create something. Everything which God created, never existed at all before it came into being (as some Greek philosophers mistakenly thought). Nowhere does it say that God created anything out of Himself … even God’s ‘breathing’ into Adam does not imply that Adam “came from God”. God did not ‘need’ anything to create anything.
    Which is why God is mutually exclusive from his creation. Even those who are born again are in no way ‘gods’ at all … they may be ‘like’ God, ‘like’ Jesus, but are basically new creations in Christ Jesus. God is God … as Isaiah says: Isaiah 43:10 …
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Satan will finally come to understand this when he is cast into the eternally ‘scalding’ torment-filled Lake of Fire … and he will feel the pain like no other. No one tampers with any of God’s creation and gets away with it. Ultimately, His Divine TriUne Retribution will settle everything.

    Maranatha … it won’t be long now.

    • steve

      One other brief comment (enjoying your exegesis Doug… keep up the interesting articles) …. in any event … before ‘creation’ God was not alone in the sense of ‘yachid’ (as Maimonides would assert) … as if God was monolithically ‘lonely’ … God was, is and always will be ‘echad’. In fellowship with Himself/ with His ‘fellows’ … He wasn’t, isn’t and never will be “alone”/lonely/ or ‘yachid’ (as Rabbinic Judaism would assert), but always had/has/will have fellowship with Himself (YHVH the Father,YHVH the Son & YHVH the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh/Shechinah) …. and with his saved/born again human creation, created out of His own love (for us) and saved out of His own love for us. It is for our eternal benefit that we choose Him. He is Echad, YHVH, THE Compound Divine Unity…Eternally sufficient in Himself in every way imaginable … He is only ‘yachid’ /single (as Maimonides described Him) in His exclusiveness as the ‘only’ God there is … all others are ‘no-gods’. Even Maimonides qualifies himself by saying in the 13 principles of the Jewish faith that ‘there is no singleness/yachid-ness like unto His … a good point to point out to Jewish individuals when witnessing to them. Before creation, only God existed … there wasn’t even ‘nothingness’… just the Father, the Son (the Word Jesus Christ/Messiah Yeshua, & the Holy Spirit.

      Maranatha! Messiah Yeshua is at the doors.

  • steve

    Can you give us a Rabbinic reference to where ‘eretz’ means water, or to where ‘eretz’ alludes to meaning water?
    If you have a non-Rabbinic (Israeli/lexicon/dictionary) definition, please offer this if possible.

    Many thanks with blessings in Christ,

    Steve

    • https://profiles.google.com/doughamp Doug Hamp

      For the record, I have not stated that eretz means water – what I am saying is that in Genesis 1:1 – the earth – at that time in creation – was not yet the ball of dirt we are standing on today. Genesis 1:2 defines the earth at that time as water. Then the Lord divided waters from waters and then dry land appeared. 

  • haloween

    I thought that eretz was earth or land/country..I did not know it could mean water, but then I do Not know the hebrew or greek either.

    • https://profiles.google.com/doughamp Doug Hamp

      For the record, I have not stated that eretz means water – what I am saying is that in Genesis 1:1 – the earth – at that time in creation – was not yet the ball of dirt we are standing on today. Genesis 1:2 defines the earth at that time as water. Then the Lord divided waters from waters and then dry land appeared. 

      • haloween

        Sorry, I did not mean it in a  /wrong way. I read it in the wrong way.

  • Paul

    I enjoyed the article and agree with it. 

    It was news to me that on the first day eretz was water: is this water as in literal, pure H2O, or is it a root-word which described fluid matter in general (i.e. liquids, gases, plasmas, etc.) and which came to be used as the word for water? I also was surprised at the idea of the “line” in Job being the night/day line (the scientific term, amusingly enough, is “the terminator”) — I always thought, from the context of the verse, that it referred to a measuring-line, such as that used by a builder.  Even if it does, then it doesn’t alter the truth of your argument.  The mountain of God is something which crops up quite a lot in Scripture, and the New Jerusalem in Revelation seems to be a mountain-shape.  …Or more precisely, a square-based pyramid.  (Some have held that it’s a cube, but this would be rather odd, since it has walls rising from its base.)  I guess that the pyramids themselves might well have been a sort-of counterfeit of the New Jerusalem.  …Like that weird thing on the back of the dollar bill!  Interesting stuff, anyway: thanks, Doug! 

    • https://profiles.google.com/doughamp Doug Hamp

      For the record, I have not stated that eretz means water – what I am saying is that in Genesis 1:1 – the earth – at that time in creation – was not yet the ball of dirt we are standing on today. Genesis 1:2 defines the earth at that time as water. Then the Lord divided waters from waters and then dry land appeared. 

  • Greg P.

    Book of Jubilees: Chapter 2: 1 And the angel of the presence spoke to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and 2 appointed it as a sign for all His works. For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He has 3 prepared in the knowledge of his heart. And after that, we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him because of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dbaklund David Baklund

     This is good stuff! When it comes to the measurement of ages as we know
    “time”…I view it simply a measurement of change. Therefore if you are
    not effected by change and never change yourself, the measurement of
    time is meaningless to you and zero effect on any aspect of you. This
    might shed some understanding on how God views things in His ways. Us
    humans have a point of origin, a point of coming into existence,
    therefore we have the ultimately daunting task of trying to rap our
    understanding around what it means to have no beginning, which I believe
    in and of ourselves we cannot…only the Holy Spirit can impart this
    revelation unto us. This must also means that angels have the same issue
    as us when it comes to time. Fallen spirits sure are aware of it
    because when they were confronted by Jesus they cried “have you come to
    torment us before the time?” The time obviously is the final judgement
    of disobedience were the ultimate change of their existence will happen
    [in the worst way imaginable I may add]. This also may answer one of the
    reasons why worship of God is so awe inspiring & humbling to us
    human & holy angels. Yes God’s power & might is overwhelming,
    yes He is perfect in every way, and add this perspective…we are
    beholding the only being that never had a beginning, never changes,
    never is effected by anything we are. Simply amazing!

    • Paul

      Yes, I too believe that angels are time-bound beings.  Were they not, then they could look through time, “declaring the end from the beginning” (Isaiah 46:10), but God is clear that He alone can do this. 

      Einstein explained that time is simply a dimension (and thus part of the Creation itself) — albeit a rather special one.  It seems that God has bound all His creatures by time, including the angels.  Humans are accustomed to living within four dimensions: three spatial ones and one temporal one.  However, it appears from Scripture that angelic creatures are spatially hyperdimensional — they exist and operate in more than three spatial dimensions.  (Since although they can just ‘appear’, they are clearly not immaterial — they have physical presence and can interact with physical objects.)  It also appears that if believers will in the resurrection have a body like Jesus’ own glorified body, then resurrected believers will enjoy not only incorruptibility but also hyperdimensionality (like the angels do)!  Of course, it’s impossible for us to imagine a fourth or fifth spatial dimension, just as it would be impossible for a person who inhabited a 2D world (such as a piece of paper) to imagine a 3D world like ours.  But some day, we’ll see things as they really are! 

      Lastly, when you say “fallen spirits”, you mean unclean spirits (i.e. demons), and not fallen angels, yes?  There appears to be a distinction between fallen angels and demons/unclean spirits: the former are simply the angels who rebelled, whereas the latter seem to be something else — probably the irredeemable spirits of Genesis-6-type human-angel hybrids.  …And as you point out, they know that they are awaiting a final Judgement, at an appointed time. 

      • http://www.facebook.com/dbaklund David Baklund

         I suppose it would be both spirits of the Nephilim and fallen angels are time limited. Curious though about the dead giants, Isaiah 26:14 says “Dead — they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast
        inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.” [Young's literal translation]. Now how can they be roaming around presently if they are in a place “never to rise again”? Since we know there are different classes of angels, some mightier than others…could the lower forms of possession we see simply be the lower classes of fallen angels? Personally I tend to think “demons” are just as what I described. But I’m not dogmatic about it and I could be wrong & I’m always willing to discuss it :)

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sam-Hansen/100003084107054 Sam Hansen

          I believe it means they can not resurrect to another life like us. They only lost their body, not their “spirit”. That is why they are looking for bodies.

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox

Join other followers: