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The Mystery Verse that Wasn’t There
Mystery Verse or Wild Goose Chase?

The Mystery Verse that Wasn’t There

Mystery Verse or Wild Goose Chase?

Mystery Verse or Wild Goose Chase?

What would you do if I told you that there is a buried treasure on a remote island in the Pacific and if we go to get it then we will be rich? When you ask how I know that it is there, I reply there is no map but I know that it is there. You press me and ask how I can be so sure if there is no map. I respond that I know it is there and how I know is a mystery. Would you be inclined to believe me?

What if there were a very popular doctrine among evangelicals and there was no verse / passage to substantiate and how people knew it was a mystery, what would you conclude?

I have gone on a few Facebook groups and have asked people what they believe is the best verse/passage about a certain doctrine which is extremely popular in American churches. I was told point blank, “there is no verse,” and “it is a mystery” or “I just know.” Those kind of responses I would expect from Mormon missionaries, not Bible carrying born-again evangelicals. At one point several people asked me what I was getting at since there was no verse and they couldn’t give me a biblical reason why they believed it. I asked if there is no verse then how do we know that it is true.

However, there were two people who asserted that it is the “it is the most logical,” and proceeded to build a logical case why the doctrine had to be true but in the end could still not provide even one clear verse in support of the doctrine. The problem with a logical syllogism (a syllogism has two premises and a conclusion) is two premises, even if true, may lead to a faulty conclusion will necessarily be faulty. If the premises are faulty to begin with then the conclusion must necessarily be faulty, albeit logical. Hence it is always dangerous to base important doctrines on logical reasoning. We want to base our beliefs on what is stated and revealed, not what is deduced.

Consider one of my favorite faulty (though logical) syllogisms. Notice that each of the premises is true by itself but the whole package is absurdly false.

God is Love. Love is blind. Steve Wonder is blind. Conclusion: Steve Wonder is God!

God is Love.
Love is blind.
Steve Wonder is blind.
Conclusion: Steve Wonder is God!

“There is no verse; its a mystery”


Now that we see that syllogisms (logical arguments) can lead to very faulty conclusions, let’s get back to our story. Just so you know, I never argued with anyone on the Facebook groups; I simply posed the question “what is the best verse for that certain doctrine.” I then followed it up by asking “if we don’t have a verse and the doctrine  a mystery, then how do we know that the doctrine is true?” It is just like me saying that I know where there is buried treasure but I have no map and my knowledge of it is a mystery.

To my utter shock,  I was removed from the group on the grounds that my question was disruptive (even though the question is in their group’s name!) No one was complaining about the thread, in fact after starting another thread (trying to figure out what happened) many said they enjoyed the conversation. The moderator finally told me that it was becoming pointless because I was asking for something (the verse) that doesn’t exist and even their best people had given reasons [think syllogisms] and I wasn’t willing to accept those. I was rather dumbfounded because for people who in other respects take the Bible fairly literally, this particular issue was completely out of sync. How could they believe in a doctrine for which there isn’t at least one clear verse?

Thinking that that FB group was just narrow minded, a week later I decided to pose the same basic question to a similar group with that doctrine in their FB name. Again I asked:  “what is the best verse for the doctrine?” Once again, within an hour or two tops of posting the question, I was removed and in a private message from the moderator was told that I am a “deceived … [person who holds that doctrine].” I asked him if I wasn’t being polite and courteous and not argumentative. He said that I was being respectful, etc. but he has people to protect. The problem with such an attitude is that it suggests that the followers need to be shielded from people outside the group. That is simply not true. We leaders need to encourage people to be “Bereans” to see if these things be so. My job is not to shield people but to help them understand and to always be open to reproof because I am not impervious to error – just like everyone else. We must let “iron sharpen iron.” Above all, we need to put on the “belt of truth” because it is the truth, and only the truth, that will set us free. On several occasions I have had to reevaluate doctrines that I had been taught when I discovered that they are simply not biblical. Isn’t that what we demand of the cults? Shouldn’t we demand of ourselves?

So though I never accused anyone on Facebook nor did I call anyone names or use abusive language – shoot, I didn’t really get much of a chance to say anything – I just asked the simple question – perhaps the most important question of all  “where is the verse” and I got removed twice from two groups.

The question then remains, if I said I knew where there was buried treasure and when you challenged me about how I knew it, I just asserted that you just have to have faith because there is no map and its location is a mystery, would you believe me? Should you believe me? Would you sell everything, bet your life on it, and go with me to find something that can in no way be corroborated? I can only hope the answer is “no”! Assuming you do answer “no,” I submit the question – why should we believe a doctrine (even when tons of people believe it) that has no supporting verse and is “a mystery”? When the cults want us to believe their doctrines are true we insist upon going to the Word to decide if the matter is true or false. If they cannot produce a verse or it can be shown that their rendering is false, then we conclude that it is not biblical. Shouldn’t we be courageous enough to believe the Bible over the (very popular) doctrines of men?

I know that giving up certain doctrines is no fun but I would rather live in pursuit of truth which is simply another way to say “reality.” Why live in a fantasy even if that is a very popular and so called “orthodox” doctrine when reality is what it is. If we can’t find favorite doctrines in the Bible then perhaps we are just on…

A Wild Goose Chase!

A Wild Goose Chase!


About Douglas


  1. Perhaps to your surprise Doug, Its several verses, promises of protection and rescue and then its in the Apostolic Fathers: they actually mention being rescued from when all hell breaks loose – the Millennium itself is in St Papias, and St Hyppolytus mentions rescue. The rescue is mentioned in St Ephrem. Its all their Doug, and so are many reasonings that go with Bridal Theology, the Jewish Wedding tradition (see Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum). Its repugnant to the whole Scriptures that Christ would subject his Bride to his Father’s wrath. Noah WAS rescued. Lot WAS rescued. As Dr Missler said, The Bridegroom doesn’t want his bride all beat up before the wedding…And remember the foolish bridesmaids were LATE, they ran out of time, while the wise ones were waiting and watching along the pathway of His return. Then the Doctrine of Imminence fits the Pre-Trib scenario better. If there’s to be a Millennium which I think there is NO question the Bible is clear at least on that one, then why would Christ take His bridal followers up and then down again? It doesn’t make sense, let alone knowing when Christ was coming if they are in the Tribulation – it IS after all the time of JACOB’S trouble: it is Israel that is chastised, not His holy Remnant among believers. How do you think I feel – I’m convinced of the rapture and I’m CATHOLIC (Catholicism passed into Amillennialism) ! You ask for the magic verse: I think its there in 1 Thess 4, St Matthew, Rev 3:10. There is no mention of the Holy Trinity in the Bible either but we know it to be true by the principles involved and the albeit somewhat indirect mentionings such as the Theophany: the Baptism of Our Lord. Ultimately I think it is the Spirit within that witnesses with our spirit that we will be taken right when God removes the Restrainer on the evil world – and THEN also the man of sin will be revealed. I believe in the Rapture of the Church because of God’s character.

    • I was pretrib so I am well aware of the supposed reasons. All I want is Scripture – not the top ten reasons why it ought to be true. None of the verses you cite have a timing reference, so please look again. The argument about the trinity is trite and over used. Please share a verse and then I believe it. Until then you are making things up and that is why I left it. Trust me, I didn’t want to leave the pretrib rapture. I personally like the idea. Also, the wrath of God is not the seven year trib but the return of Yeshua.

      God bless,

  2. Hey Doug, would you say then that the rapture is post Trib? Is that where the harpazo fits in?

  3. Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

    I agree – I’ve had trouble finding the verses that supposedly support a post-trib position, too.

    • I believe the simplest way to determine where in the the timeline the event in question occurs is to determine when the Day of The Lord.occurs. Joel 2:31 is a good starting point. Once you are clear on The Day of The Lord it becomes simple. I believe using that term interchangeably with the entire 7 years is the cause of confusion.

  4. I realize this discussion has faded, I apologize, however I have only just now read your article Doug…and AMEN! Also I am very uplifted by the spirit of love in all you guy’s comments here.

    That said, I hope whoever reads this can bear with me, I know its long and hopefully I can keep this to the point, however I find it very difficult when sharing my faith to stick solely to one specific topic. So many times when studying Scripture with my fellow “local church” brethren, so to speak, they think I jump around too much (going from one topic to another), and yet I have come to realize that because no word of God is separate and apart from another of His word, I hinder the Spirit from doing His work of revelation to me when I try and “take back control” and formulate “own interpretation” of any passage I have just read –> I see this as a primary result of a very generic and misled prayer I hear ALL THE TIME: “may we take Your word and apply it to our everyday lives”. I’ll explain in a moment.

    Sorry for this long “disclaimer”, but I feel it necessary to first share my initial experience in “coming unto the LIVING Christ who had already ‘came unto’ me”; as opposed to what I had been doing all my life of thinking: “Ok Jesus, thank you for what you did once here on earth for my sins…now that I’ve been baptized I’ll try take it from here…see you in heaven, well hopefully, if I can manage to stop sinning so much.” – I hope this is making sense.

    A few years back, while I was still experiencing what I now know was the exact “spirit of fear” of 1 Timothy 1:7, having a “form of godliness but denying the power of His blood” I had it in my mind to preach a sermon on what used to be my favorite verse: Acts 17:27 “so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us”. The words are so poetically beautiful that I wished to speak on it and yet very shortly into my sermon preparation I was stuck with no idea of how I was going to conclude – I realized then how ignorant I truly was on this -> My own spiritual zeal died down and I left trying to figure it out. At that moment I finally realized how empty my state of being was, completely afraid of sin and therefore sinning all the more, and then IT HAPPENED! After years of merely “church going” I FINALLY literally fell to my knees in prayer for about 30 minutes saying “Lord, Save Me!” That “answer of a good conscience” finally transpired and BOLDNESS entered my prayer and for the next 30-45 minutes I was DECLARING that He give me that PROMISE of His Holy Spirit of understanding and within a few weeks His Spirit turned this one verse into a 7 part/day sermon series dealing with the prophesy of Noah in Genesis 9, dealing with Shem, Ham, and Japheth (which I had no clue even existed before)
    I’m almost done. I’ll post this part separately and submit the reason for this long post with what I intended to say concerning this article; and for any who took the time to read this I am extremely appreciative.

  5. http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/2-15.htm. The Bible is not in the Bible, but was the plan if those who received authority by succession from those given authority by Christ to do so and bind and loose and forgive sins or retain them., which is mentioned in Scripture. Therefore, not all doctrine need be spelled out in Scripture. Most who demand that don’t consider they use a book compiled by The Church, minus 7 books and altered, and that they put up a tree and celebrate Christmas on December 25, a date not found in Scripture as wasn’t a tree decorated.

  6. HI Doug! Like you I was profoundly influenced by what I call the Calvary Chapel perspective. I still even go to one. But I have done some considerable reading on all of the “theories” on the timing of the rapture. l still hope the pre-trib notions are correct…but I suspect the pre-wrath position is more likely to eventually happen. But to be honest with you, I don’t understand the reason for even having a rapture in the post-trib scenerio. Why would we be raptured up to meet the LORD in the air if all we are going to do is turn around and come right back to the Earth with the LORD? It strikes me as being a giant mid-air U-turn. God bless you my brother!

  7. Hi Doug.

    Glad to hear you’re still all right: your site went rather quiet for a while and I feared that all was not well, and began praying for you.

    off to you for being able to stand up and say that the doctrine you
    once believed is not Scriptural: it’s the right thing to do, of course,
    but it takes nerve to do that, especially if you have taught it and have
    published books which uphold this doctrine. So many Christian writers on prophecy appear to be stuck forever in a rut, simply because they can’t
    bring themselves to do what you’ve done, scrapping an unsupportable position (pretribulationalism is a prime example) and starting again from Scripture alone. God is
    showing us things in these last times (just as Daniel 12 intimates He
    would), and we should be sensitive to them.

    As for
    pretribulationalism itself, I too came to the conclusion that the text
    doesn’t really support it: I hope I’m wrong (I want to be raptured in
    the next five minutes, if possible!), but I think believers will indeed
    face the wrath of the Beast (I no longer call him the Antichrist,
    because the text doesn’t call him that — he may indeed be “an antichrist”, denying Christ came in the flesh, but
    the Scriptures name him “the Beast” or “the man of sin”, etc.).

    Some other doctrines I’ve abandoned:

    The “Roman Antichrist”/”Islamic Antichrist” theories: the Scripture
    doesn’t really tell us he’s an Italian leader of the EU/UN or an Arab
    leader of the Caliphate, but it does say that he’s a military genius who wages war against Israel’s neighbours. (I’m not dogmatic on who the Antichrist is, but I think it more likely that he will be — or will be regarded as being — a Jew rather than a Muslim or some European political figure.)
    2. The
    “Ezekiel 38 is around the corner” doctrine — despite my (no doubt carnal) desire to
    “imminentize” as much of Scripture as possible, some years ago I
    realised that the Gog-Magog war described by Ezekiel is almost certainly an
    expanded account of the final conflict described by John at the end of
    3. Christian Zionism. No, I don’t subscribe to
    replacement theology, and neither do I support the ‘Palestinians’ (nor
    swallow all the anti-Israel propaganda which saturates the mainstream
    media), but I’m starting to think that Zionism is the NWO counterfeit of God’s
    regathering of Israel, and is being used to suck the remaining decent
    churches into an End-Times deception. (Barry Chamish helped me to see
    that one…)

    Finally, thanks to the relentless efforts of
    people like you, Doug, I’ve come to accept that there really IS a global
    élite (call them NWO or Illuminati or the Shadow Government or
    whatever) which runs the world on Satan’s behalf. And I never thought I’d
    become a “911 truther” but I guess I am, now: although I don’t know that I’d
    be called a “conspiracy theorist” since I don’t have a theory — clearly
    911 was a conspiracy, but the official theory just has far too many
    holes in it to be credible. So the officials who spun us that theory
    are liars…

    My views may yet change over time as The Lord
    reveals more from the Scripture and as more information comes to light:
    the thing I’ve learned is that I should cling tightly *only* to God
    Himself, and should refrain from clinging tightly to any interpretation of some passage
    in Scripture. Where the text is plain, no problem. But where there’s
    much room for interpretation, it’s unwise to be too dogmatic.

    reading your account (and some of the other accounts here), it seems
    that these peripheral doctrines are idols for great swathes of
    professing Christians.

    Also, I see BIG FRICTION arising between
    genuine believers — and I’m ashamed to say that I’ve not been immune
    to feeling irritated and even angry with other believers myself. But I’m starting to
    think that this is itself simply another sign of the times. It’s very late in the day: I believe Satan is
    upping his game and really turning the pressure to make our love for one
    another grow cold, because Christ’s return is now at the doors.

    Keep praying & watching, brethren!

    God bless,


  8. Brother Joe in Jacksonville

    Ok, then “what is the best verse supporting the mid-tribulation (or pre wrath) rapture?” (this is not in the word either) This renders the question “what is the best verse for the pre-tribulation rapture” invalid since there are no rapture scenarios summed in one verse all must be taught in the full context of scripture. right? if right then why are you asking pre rapture groups an invalid question? if not right then what is THE VERSE that supports your view of the rapture?

    • Brother Joe, my point was that we teach as fact the pre-trib rapture when there is not verse to support it. As for an alternative, Matt 24:29-31 does give a very clear timing of a “gathering up” and judging from the language, it and 1Thess 4:16-17 are the same. Essentially, the rapture will occur moments/minutes/hours?? before Jesus comes to fight the A.C. Blessings!!

  9. The gospel itself can be a mystery doctrine to some. As we approach the seconding coming of Jesus Christ, the gospel itself is becoming more of a mystery. Even many so called Christian churches are preaching a powerless gospel that will never save anyone. I believe Constantine was the initiator of this powerless gospel and Roman Catholicism was the religion orchestrated to spread this powerless gospel. With a gospel that it is incapable of guaranteeing eternal salvation and promotes a work based theology, it demolishes hope and without hope fear will soon ensue. This type of gospel allows the human race to be controlled and manipulated and allows those empowered by Satan to deceive and control the masses. A person who has the true knowledge of the gospel message has hope and with this hope brings true power. Not a power from ourselves,
    but a power from a mighty and sovereign God. This type of power will stomp out all fear and will allow the one who has it, to see death as hope and hope in death. Sometimes, we try so hard to defend our doctrinal positions and forget, that many do not understand or know, what the true gospel message is. The great rebellion in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 will only be possible when the gospel no longer has its power. When the gospel has lost its power, the son of perdition will be able to assert his power over a world that has no hope. In the end, a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture makes no difference to those who have no hope.

    • Hi Gary – you are so right. I hardly think this is the most important issue out there but you wouldn’t know that from how many Christians lead their lives. I have been guilty of that too. I am calling us to only teach things that are clearly spelled out in the Bible. If we teach something that is not in the Bible then we are just inventing out own doctrines and that is obviously bad.

  10. Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

    Proverbs 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

    Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

    Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

    Psalm 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

    Psalm 125:1 They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

    Psalm 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

    Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

    John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

  11. Cindy Baker Stevens

    Great article! I whole heartedly agree as my husband and I have had similar experiences of being “shunned’ by other believers simply for questioning the pre-trib doctrine; we were pulled out of our Sunday school teaching positions, accused of teaching and believing heresy and lost friendships, we were asked to leave a church “quietly” by the pastor who later admitted that he himself had questions regarding that doctrine but he was “too old to change now.”! . But the biggest shock came when I applied for a volunteer position at our local Crisis Pregnancy Center and filled out the questionnaire which strange enough, included a question on my beliefs of the pre-trib rapture. I filled it out as honestly as I could and really didn’t think much of it. Later I was called for an “interview” to appear before the board which consisted of about ten pastors in the area. I studied ahead of time thinking I was going to be asked about the stages of pregnancy and development of the baby. Imagine my surprise when the interview quickly turned into an interrogation regarding my answer on the pre-trib rapture! The questions were fired at me faster then I could finish answering them. However, I left knowing the Lord was with me as I answered every question without any sense of panic or hesitancy. I felt at peace knowing that I spoke truth. Before leaving, the head of the board curtly told me they would consider my application and would “let me know.” A week later, I received a letter which stated that in “keeping with the doctrines of the faith” they must decline my application. I was prepared to help young mothers in saving their babies and was not allowed to only because of my views on the pre-trib doctrine!

  12. IMO, the discussion must begin with a few given and accepted precepts; The Bible is the Word of God, the Bible is to be interpreted literally, the church and Israel are separate entities, the 1000 year Millennium is literal, there will be a literal 7 year tribulation, Jesus will return again to earth, and the Bible teaches about the rapture (I Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of an event called “the rapture,” Latin-“rapio,” Greek-“harpazo” which means to catch up, snatch away, or take out. Continuing; The Bible describes the Rapture and the 2nd Coming as different events. For example- John 14:1-4, I Cor. 15:51-58, I Thes. 4:13-18. However, the 2nd coming is described differently. For example- Zech 14:1-21, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-27, and all of Revelation 19. In the Rapture, believers meet Christ in the air. In the 2nd coming, He returns to the Mt. of Olives to meet believers still on the earth. At the Rapture, the Mt. of Olives is unchanged. In the 2nd coming, the Mt. of Olives is split, forming a valley east of Jerusalem. In the Rapture, living believers obtain glorified bodies. In the 2nd coming living believers remain in their own bodies. There are many more examples I could list, but I hate to ramble on and on. The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning. Jesus stated in Matt. 24:42-44 to therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come . . .so you also must be ready because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Not only do we not know, but even Jesus has not been told (Matt. 24:36). The 2nd coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events. Because the Rapture could occur at any moment and without warning and the 2nd coming is preceded by many events, the Rapture and the 2nd coming must be separate events.

    • Differences between 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:

      1)1 Thess 4 doesn’t describe “the last trump”, whereas 1 Cor 15 does.

      2)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe a voice/shout, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

      3)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe any angels, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

      4)1 Cor 15 doesn’t describe us meeting the Lord in the air, whereas 1 Thess 4 does.

      5)1 Thess 4 doesn’t describe anyone being “changed”, whereas 1 Cor 15 does.

      Now then, I seriously doubt any pretrib teacher would dare suggest that 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are two distinct events. Yet that’s exactly what they try to do when attempting to claim that Matt. 24:29-31 is different from 1 Thess 4:14-17. Pretrib argues that 1 Thess 4 is a pretrib rapture, just because Paul doesn’t specifically describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. I don’t think they realize that in Matt. 24:29-31 (which is clearly a description of the Lord’s posttrib return), the Lord doesn’t specifically describe His feet touching the ground either.

      Additionally, in 2 Thess 1:6-10, which is clearly a reference to Armageddon, Paul didn’t specifically describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. Should we then believe that Paul is describing another coming altogether?

      For that matter, Rev. 19:14-21 doesn’t describe the Lord’s feet touching the ground. Should we believe that the Lord doesn’t, just because that detail is missing?

      So that argument is a non sequitur.

      Also, is Revelation 19:11-21 describing a different event than Matthew 24:29-31, just because no horses are described in Matthew 24, and no clouds are described in Revelation 19?

      Yet again, that’s exactly the type of argument pretribulationism tries to make in pointing out differences between 1 Thess 4 and Matthew 24:29-31, when they argue that any difference must mean two separate events.

      The rapture and posttrib second coming are one and the same.

    • Jack – go back and quote those verses and show me in the verse where it tells you the timing of the rapture. You will find that it simply isn’t there. God bless.

    • Is your 7 year tribulation doctrine based on The Ribera-Lacunza-Irving-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield dispensational end-time scheme?

  13. Chris (Naples, Florida)

    Hi Doug, if you would ever like to have a brotherly debate (private or public) about the abundance of verses and scriptures providing us with our hope of deliverance (salvation) as beneficiaries of the Ekklesia – protecting the body of Messiah from the wrath of YHVH to come (the Day of the Lord) prior to Daniel’s last sheva … I would be more than happy to oblige. You have my contact information as one of your regular donors. In Messiah.

  14. Haha…I knew it was about Pre-Trib right away. I have loved your teachings ever since I found your book Corrupting the Image. Was sad when I started watching Quest 4 Truth and you abandoned the Pre-Trib view though. I think this is a weak argument. There are plenty of positions that Christians take that are not directly backed up by a certain chapter/verse in the Bible. It is the totality of Scripture that supports a Pre-Trib position. Still love ya Doug….God Bless!

    • Hi Matthew. I was sad too! I liked the doctrine. You are right there are a lot of positions that we teach that are not taught in Scripture…and my point is that we ought to stop. If we do speculate, then we ought to be quick to mention that and not teach it as “doctrine.” Blessings!

  15. http://audio.slbc.org/index.php?page=2 Dr. Andy Woods has an in depth study in which he concludes Jesus was talking about the rapture in John 14:1-4., after listening, it made sense to me. I have never heard any one go into it like he does. Hope this helps.

    • Sure Jesus is coming back and when he does he will get his own. The question really is when is the rapture? Read John 14:1-4 and please show me where the timing of the rapture is. John 14:1 The Way, the Truth, and the Life Jesus Is the Way, the Truth, and the Life “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
      John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions;[1] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[2]
      John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
      John 14:4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

      It tells us nothing about the timing of the rapture.

      • Based on Rev 19 we can rule out Post-Trib right away. When Christ returns to earth His army from/of/which was in (dep. on trans.) Heaven follows Him (Rev 19:14). That army is obviously the Bride because it is wearing clean white linen which it received at the Marriage Supper(Rev 19:8). So the Marriage Supper is BEFORE Christ returns and Christ returns With the Church. Therefor Matt 24:31 can not be referring to the rapture of the Church because the Church would have missed out on the Marriage Supper which took place prior to Christ returning and Christ returns WITH His Bride. So Matt 24:31 must be referring to a gathering of some other group of the Elect. I would assume Tribulation believers and/or the Jews who acknowledge their offence (Ho 5:15).

        • No pre -T rapture is like leaving the bride waiting alone on an undefined “Despedida de Soltera” party, with the worst company and in the most dangerous place … If she survives the odds, if she proves herself worthy, then her chances of being upgraded to a keeper are good.
          Are you married Doug?

          • The bride has been getting beaten up for 2,000 years, and certainly was no stranger to persecution and martyrdom in the 1st century:

            2 Corinthians 4:11- “For we which live are ALWAYS delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.”

          • Isn’t the bride described in Revelation the New Jerusalem? I believe us believers are described as the body of Christ and the bride is the holy city come down from heaven adorned as a bride. Rev 21:9-27.

          • Nice picture…just need the verse. Don’t worry, God knows how to take care of his own.

          • Can’t wait to get in on this discussion /I ended up here after watching your YouTube video on election ,which i think is pretty impressive thanks for all the research .however I thought the answer from Jack Stargel was a pretty good place to start/ I don’t have an axe to grind but after 40 years of Bible study a pre trib rapture seems very clear in Scripture/remember that the Jews didn’t see Christ coming because they only wanted the Lion of Judah /they didn’t want a suffering servant/because they didn’t want a lamb they managed not to see him in the scripture and we all know that they were wrong/I don’t really believe in the value of single prooftexts because Jesus said He is found in the volume of the book.a rapture can’t be imminent if you can count the days and months to his actual coming which we will be able to do at the end of the tribulation and when I say we sorry guys I don’t plan on being there. hopefully folks are still looking at this I would love to talk about this with you Doug, thanks Jim

        • Jesus compares souls to a harvest in John 4:35. The reaping of the good harvest of the earth is the rapture of the church. This harvest that He reaps is immediately before the wrath of God, described in Revelation 14:17-20. Thus, the rapture of the church occurs just prior to God’s wrath.

        • You might be shocked to know that the Lord described returning from Heaven at His second coming with anyone other than His angels:

          Matthew 16:27- “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

          Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

          Mark 8:38- “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the HOLY ANGELS.”

          Luke 9:26- “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the HOLY ANGELS.”

          No saints emerging out of Heaven at the Lord’s second coming.

          Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:

          2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from HEAVEN with his mighty ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

          In 1 Thess 4, Paul was clear that we “meet Him in the air” AFTER He emerges out of Heaven. First the dead-in-Christ “RISE” to meet Him in the air, and then the living believers follow suit.

        • You might be shocked to know that the Lord never described returning from Heaven at His second coming with anyone other than His angels:

          Matthew 16:27- “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

          Matthew 25:31- “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the HOLY ANGELS with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

          Mark 8:38- “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the HOLY ANGELS.”

          Luke 9:26- “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the HOLY ANGELS.”

          No saints emerging out of Heaven at the Lord’s second coming.

          Paul reiterated this, in the ONLY set of verses in which he SPECIFICALLY describes who returns with the Lord from Heaven:

          2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from HEAVEN with his mighty ANGELS, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

          In 1 Thess 4, Paul was clear that we “meet Him in the air” AFTER He emerges out of Heaven. First the dead-in-Christ “RISE” to meet Him in the air, and then the living believers follow suit.

          • Hmmm….well I think I agree with you now. I just had a discussion with some Post-Tribers and they point out some wrong assumptions I made in my above argument. First Rev 19 only announces that the Marriage Supper IS COME not that it happens right then. Second I assumed that the army from Heaven was the Bride since the army was clothed in fine, white, clean, bright linen. However, angels also wear white, clean, bright, linen. Also this is the Army (Host) of Heaven. We are the Bride not the Army. It is always angels that are described as God’s army. I can not think of anywhere that we are described that way. This was my one big argument for Pre-Trib, or at least non-Post-Trib. All other arguments like who populates the Millennial Kingdom, Immanency, historical types etc. I always felt were trivial or overstated. The Quest 4 Truth never ends!

          • Thanks for sharing Matthew! I appreciate your candor to come back and share that. We are all on a quest for truth!

          • I feel like I have mental and Spiritual whiplash! Lol I really was so firmly rooted in a Pre-Trib belief. I really is a secondary issue though. If one is truly saved it is not like they would miss out on the rapture if it was really Pre-Trib, but they believed it was Post-Trib. Or if it was really Post-Trib but believed it was Pre that they would be tricked into taking the mark or something. It is just good to study and learn what God has in store for us! ” It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” Pro. 25:2

          • Great points John!! Thanks!

      • Preview (John 14:1-4)
        I. Preliminary reasons
        II. Exegesis of John 14:1-4
        III. Answering the non-rapture
        Doug, the above is an outline of the first teaching by Dr Andy Woods on why Jesus was referring to the rapture.Since the timing is unclear and confusing. it takes a little scholarly digging to bring some light. I suggest you take a listen to his first teaching, as outlined above…..i found it compelling, and taken with the whole of scripture says Pre Trib Rapture…..

      • John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and
        receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

        This is the rapture.Jesus is going to receive us, in a dwelling place prior to our final destiny….i am not the scholar Dr Wood is, but this link explains it…better than i can… .http://www.slbc.org/sermon/did-jesus-refer-to-the-rapture-part-3/

    • Andy Wood blocked me simply for questioning his teachings.

  16. Hi Doug, Great article. Was the doctrine you asked about the Pre-Tribulation rapture? I used to believe that doctrine too until I started listening to you, Rob Skiba and others in the past year. Love your Quest4Truth show.


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