New Heavens and New Earth: Before the Millennium or After?

63 comments

oakley monster pup sunglasses August 7, 2016 at 8:31 pm

Dear friend
Your post is so helpful,it give me much help,thank you!

Douglas September 19, 2016 at 11:31 pm

Thanks so much!

Bruno Frohlich November 4, 2015 at 8:10 am

I’m in trouble with Rev 21:4 and 22.

“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away”.

“No more death”? What about Isa 65:20 mention of child’s death?

“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it”.

Ok, no temple, because I thought that the temple would be build according to Eze 40 (and so on), and not because “the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it”.

Please, help me with that, brother!

Thanks and regards from Brazil!

David D. Reynolds March 25, 2016 at 7:45 am

You are reading a passage about New Jerusalem, the believer’s new home. As New Jerusalem descends, note the announcement about the Bride, the Wife. This is because it is identified with the inhabitants, we the church, the Bride of Christ. Recall that at the 2nd Coming we return WITH Christ. Well, this is it. We will not be hanging out in heaven for a thousand years while Christ sits on the throne of David. We return with him at the 2nd Coming. According to the ancient wedding tradition, this is when the Bride is unveiled and publicly presented. This is the end of a Week long (week of years in this case) marriage celebration. Now the Marriage Supper begins with everyone in attendance.

Next, along with the Renewal or Refreshing of the earth (remember, all the water has been turned into blood, it’s a mess after all those judgments) Jesus, the Branch himself, will build Ezekiel’s temple ON EARTH as a memorial. The Jews who are now believers and ushered in to the Millennium will use that temple as a memorial for the Messiah’s sacrifice for us.

So Ezekiel’s temple on earth, NO temple in New Jerusalem hovering somewhere over earth as the new home of the Bride.

HollyRB September 3, 2015 at 6:08 pm

These are good questions from ‘Lookingitup, below. Here is the copy/paste. I have the same questions and I do not know how to access the CD. The implication here is that Jesus’ presence will promote such healing that the Earth is renewed, but not brand new.
1.) Where will all of the folks still alive going into the Millenium going to be while Jesus reforms the new earth?2.) There will still be sin during the Millenium since there will still be people in fleshly bodies, so the earth will still be affected by the sin curse during the Millenium. It seems premature to make a new earth until the end-of-millenium battle with Satan per Revelation 20:7-9 and the second death when all sin is judged. The purpose of the New Earth is that EVERYTHING will be new and prepared for a sinless, resurrected population.
3.) The new earth of Revelation 21 has no sea, yet Revelation 20 says the sea will give up the dead for the final judgment.
4.) If the Lord was going to create a New Heaven and New Earth for the Millenium, it seems He would have given John the vision of it in chronological order somewhere around Revelation 20:4 just like the rest of the book is chronological.
Jesus will have some healing of the earth to do when He returns, but He doesn’t have to create a whole new earth to do it. His presence can bring a peaceful state to the animal kingdom, too.

David D. Reynolds March 25, 2016 at 7:57 am

1) Folks will be here on earth. Read the entire second half of Isaiah and it reads of renewal, rivers flowing in to the seas, life where there was none, etc. The word for NEW heaven and NEW earth speaks of renewal, just as when we become believers we become a “new man.” Same word. Renewed. I believe Peter’s description is the very common use of hyperbole in Hebrew writings. In fact, it matches one of the Seal Judgments, which are very early in the tribulation week.
2) Yes, mortals will be able to sin during the Millennium. This is the Why of why Jesus will have to rule with a rod of iron. Children will be born, many of them unbelievers. Satan will be released on one be Decision Day at the very end, right? Some will decide once and for all for Christ, some will side with Satan, just as with Gog and Magog. They will be put down “at a word.”
3) “…and the sea was no more.” -Revelation 21:1
People quote this a good deal and the question regularly comes up. It is best policy to take Scripture at face value as often as possible. Sometimes, however, this requires more reading than the text we are in. This is the other side of the same coin. The technical term is “Synthesis.” It simply means all Scripture is by the same Author and will hang together. If it does not, guess where the error is.
This passage is a classic example and I still hear it today, even from the pulpit. For the sea life lovers and divers among us it can be a source of some little distress. Let’s narrow the meaning down and see if this is in fact the case.
Let’s also gain some perspective: If the Fall is Paradise Lost, is not the Kingdom Jesus will establish Paradise Found? Jesus will renew the earth and set things right. God created the seas as Genesis says, “9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.”
So what has changed? He thought Seas were good back in Genesis, so what has changed? Seas are no longer good?
Seas could be literal or figurative. Perhaps John was describing from his perspective at old and New Jerusalem. The changes already upon the earth by this time as a result of the calamities caused by God’s wrath upon the world are remarkable. Massive geologic upheavals caused by the quakes that sank islands and leveled mountains, all waters turned to blood…John is describing a massive shift he sees in population and geography. A vast change in structure is in order by the time Jesus returns to establish his kingdom on earth. Is John really saying “no more massive bodies of water” or “no more oceans” or is he saying the Mediterranean, Sea of Galilee or both are altered or gone? Well, we do know that a river of living waters will be flowing toward somewhere. It would seem that the geography has changed so that what John sees in unrecognizable.
SEAS in the Kingdom
Ezekiel 34:13, 14 − “I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.”
Ez 47:8-10 − Then he said to me, “These waters go out toward the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh.
9 “It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
10 “And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many.
THIS IS KEY:
**And again from Isaiah 11:15, 16
The LORD will dry up the gulf of the Egyptian sea; with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand over the Euphrates River. He will break it up into seven streams so that men can cross over in sandals. There will be a highway for the remnant of his people that is left from Assyria, as there was for Israel when they came up from Egypt.**
Zechariah 14 reads
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
And again, a Kingdom prophecy in Zechariah 9:10 is:
I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.’
Which we again must consider as a restating of what John was referring to in Revelation 21:1 “and the sea was no more.” This both or either as a perspective from his locality in his vision (or future experience) and/or hyperbole describing poetically the changes occurring in an earth whose seas represented danger and death, recently swollen with the dead and turned to blood.
So, using synthesis we find that God thought Seas were good. We find there will be rivers flowing into them. We find them mentioned in Kingdom references. So from John’s perspective, what was he seeing? My favorite view is not the figurative (people) although that could be it. But as he is speaking about physical differences, he is likely noticing the once familiar sea (he was living on Patmos) was gone! Dramatically altered with a new land bridge. The King’s Highway is in its place.
4) Many passages in Revelation, in fact in ALL books, movies, episodic television…are out of order. Simultaneous things are addressed like, “meanwhile, back at the ranch…” Revelation 20 offers the disposition of Satan and unbelievers versus what happens to the Believers. Then chapter 21 picks up the narrative where 19 left off.

Elle September 2, 2015 at 6:53 am

So do the new heavens and earth flee away from the face of him who sits on the throne at the GWT judgement? You said yourself that the new heavens and new earth will remain before him. Might I suggest to you that the sheep/goats and the GWT are in fact one and the same.

douglashamp September 2, 2015 at 7:29 am

I think that is possible…though I do see that death is done away with at the GWT and yet there will be the potential of death during the Millennium. So, I would suggest they are the same king, same location, same “court room” but separated by 1000 years. In other words, these are the last people to appear before his judgment seat which he established 1000 years earlier.

Elle September 2, 2015 at 9:37 am

If the new heavens and earth take place at the beginning of the millennium and these heavens and earth are not the same as the old, then we have a problem. Ezekiel 39 is the same as Armageddon. The house of Israel will be burying the Gog people and all their bands for 7 months, after 7 months they will hire people to search for the skeletal remains that remain in the land. Then they will burn weapons for 7 years. This would not be new, but old. I don’t think this is a literal new heavens/earth. I think it is new in the sense that the wicked have been destroyed and a new age can commence once the bodies are buried and the land cleansed. There is a sense of newness if you will. Satan (which I believe is actually our reptilian mind that tempts us) is bound from tempting. The Holy Spirit will be poured out on humanity, dominating the carnal mind for 1000 years. I believe God removes the Holy Spirit and releases the carnal thinking (satan) to try those who lived during the millennium to see who they will obey. Unfortunately the rebels number the sand of the sea and are devoured with fire. This is the Gog invasion of Ezekiel 38.

There are things that are problematic though. If the new heavens/earth remain, then why do they flee from the presence of God at the GWT? This makes me think that the GWT should be placed just before the millennium which would be the same as the sheep/goats. In this case it is the old heavens and earth that flee to be replaced by the new. God has decreed that the wicked are to be cast into the LOF. I don’t see God needing another trial at the end, for those alive during the millennium will be able to look upon the carcasses of those cast into the LOF at the beginning. They should be well informed of what happens to the wicked. When satan is released and those deceived nations come against the holy city, I think the “being devoured with fire from heaven” is the LOF for them. The earth and heaven fleeing before God just seems to fit more before the 1000 years commences. The old flee, the new commences with the 1000 years.

I actually think the new heavens/earth is a symbol for new minds/bodies. The people living on earth will not have immortal bodies as those living inside the New Jerusalem. They will have physical flesh bodies that live as long as trees (Isaiah 65:22) and are healed of infirmities (Isaiah 35:5-6) and there minds will be renewed by the outpouring of the H.S.. They would receive eternal life when their physical life is through, assuming they do not rebel.

Anyhow, this is what I am trying to piece together from the scriptures. I am sure my thinking will change with understanding from the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, for there is only one truth, no private interpretations.

BTW, here is a link about the 2 Gog/Magog battles:
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/gog-magog.htm

Thanks for letting me chime in.

douglashamp September 3, 2015 at 1:37 pm

What then do you do with Isaiah 65:17-20 which is parallel to Rev 21:1 – yet death is still present?

Elle September 4, 2015 at 12:47 am

Hi Douglas,

I retract my former understanding. I still believe the sheep/goat and GWT judgement are one and the same, but they are after the 1000 years has ended. They are not 2 separate judgements. Since I wrote that 2 days ago, I have been up 38 out of the last 48 hours working out the details. My mind won’t allow me to sleep even when I do lay my head down. I will try to explain the best I can on how the timeline will unfold. It will be quite a wall of text.

The 144,000, whether they are a literal number or not are the exact same as the great multitude. They are in the first resurrection and only them. They are the same as the 2 witnesses which are the House of Israel and the House of Judah. They are the 2 loaves of first fruits waved before God on Pentecost. 72,000 for each loaf, they will go out by 2’s to prophesy in the first half of the tribulation. KJB says 70 disciples went out by 2, but most Bibles say 72 which I believe is what it actually should read because 72 x 2 is 144. This is an old belief I have held for several years and know it to be the truth. The souls under the altar are waiting for them to join them. Now the sheep nations apparently tried to help the 144,000 when the beast pursued them and they died as a result. The 144,000 are Yeshua’s brethren that he was praising the sheep nations for assisting in their hour of need. Look at Revelation 14:13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may REST (IN THE GRAVES) from their labours; and their WORKS do FOLLOW them. They will rest in their graves and their works will follow them to the GWTJ. It is at that judgement when works are judged. They too will be killed by the beast, but they were lukewarm. God said he would spue them out of his mouth and into the tribulation. which brings up another point. Rev 7:14 says: “……. These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” I always thought that this group went through the tribulation and came out on the other side, but after looking at the Greek behind “came” and “out of” I don’t think that is what this text is saying. Came, I feel, should be understood as: “to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence” and out of should be understood as “away from”. Read another way it would say: “These are they which arose AWAY FROM great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” There happens to be a group that did rise and went away from the GT, those are the 2 witnesses when God said: “Come up hither”. The same Greek word for come is used here in Rev 11:12 as was used as came in Rev 7:14. What happened after God called them up? They ascended into heaven away from the GT. This is the Philadelphia church who God promised he would keep from the hour of trial that was to come upon the whole earth. They are the sacrifice and oblation of Daniel 9:27 that would cease in the middle of the week. The angel told Daniel that God would confirm (strengthen) the covenant for 1 week and in the middle of the week the S&O (2 witnesses) would cease. The sheep nations continued to confirm the covenant for the remainder of the week.

Now I will give my timeline.

First 4 seals have been opened since John was given the prophecy. They started out at a walk, then trot, then canter and finally a gallop right into our time.

5th seal was the early martyrs

All 7 trumpets play out after the 5th seal, but before the 6th seal. The 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint and goes all the way to the end of the GT. The angel said “In the DAYS of the 7th trumpet……”. 6th seal marks the end of the GT. Then God sends forth his angels to gather up his people who are still alive on the earth, not dead people.

Earlier God had sent out his angels to first gather the tares TO BE BURNED (future tense) The tares were actually gathered in Rev 16:13-14, not after the GT. They were being gathered to Armageddon before the wheat was gathered after the GT. I realize that the gathering appears to take place when the 6th seal is poured out, but the 6th seal is to dry up the Euphrates to prepare the way for Yeshua and his saints, not China. Revelation is not chronological in its reading.

As for the angels gathering up people who are alive and not dead, you are probably thinking about what Paul said. I know what Paul says, but Paul is the false apostle and liar that Yeshua commended the church of Ephesus for recognizing. This I will not debate, but encourage you to seek this truth out for yourself. You must dig hard. I will provide, what I think, is the best link exposing him at the end of my letter. Anyhow, God repeatedly said he would gather the 12 tribes back to the land of Israel, and no, this did not happen in 1948. What you have there is the false, evil fig tree that bears no fruit.

After God gathers his wheat, the angels starts pouring out the vials followed by God’s own personal cup of wrath reserved for Babylon. Finally the battle of Armageddon takes place, the winepress, the Ezekiel 39 Gog/Magog. It is all one and the same. Yeshua returns with his bride to mete out justice. The tares are burned up, except for a 1/6 part that will be left behind to rebel against God at the end of the 1000 years, the Ezekiel 38 battle, and they too will be devoured with fire and anyone who sides with them. Next comes the burying of the bodies by the House of Israel who was previously gathered back. This is not the new H/E, keep in mind if it was, they would not be rebuilding the wasted cities spoken of in Isaiah 61:4. Yeshua and his bride will rule the nations, of those who are left that did not come up against Jerusalem, with a rod of iron for the next 1000 years. This is the day Peter was speaking about in 2 Peter 3:8. The 1000 years is a day of learning about God to end in judgement (which means separating, sheep/goats) and destruction for the ungodly men. I believe the lake of fire will be this old earth and they will burn up with it. However, I think after the burning it will be renewed because God says in Malachi 4:3: “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.” Meaning that they will always be eternally dead just below their feet when they become part of the new earth. After the earth is renewed, the new Jerusalem comes down. At this point, the sheep nations cannot yet enter into the city, they walk buy its light. They cannot eat from the tree of life YET, the only thing from the tree that is available to them are the leaves. The leaves are for the healing of the nations or in other words sheep nations. They will live long lives, like Methuselah, but are not yet immortal. Why? you have to remember one thing, being saved is not the same thing as eternal life. Yeshua said that everyone who believes on him is not condemned. These sheep were believers going into the tribulation, but their garments are dirty. They need to be taught by true teachers, not false clergy like we have today who tell them the law was done away with. The law will only pass when everything is fulfilled. Why? Because the law was put in place so you would know what was good and what GOD, not us, considers evil. If you obeyed it, you were blessed, if you disobeyed it you were cursed. These people will be under the law entering in, but will be blessed when they finally obey. All those with immortal bodies cannot sin, once these people receive their immortal bodies there will be no need for the law. No one will sin This is what 1 John 3:9 is referring too.
To be born again is to be born into spiritual bodies. Yeshua was the first. No one else is born again yet, despite what they think. As for the “sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed”, BAD translation. I finally was given understanding, an incidentally it came at the very moment I finished typing the sentence before last. What it means is that the sinner who is 100 that dies TO SELF will be considered swift, not accursed. Go look for yourself at the other usages for that word. Swift as in fast, he will be considered young at 100, but his death to self and and being born of the spirit will be considered swift. Others will take longer to get there, but they will all get there. Praise God.

Here is the link about Paul if you are interested in reading it:http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

I started you out at Chapter 7, you can start from the beginning by clicking on “outline” at bottom of page. I suggest you read it, the prophecy about Peter at the end of the Gospel of John and its true meaning should blow you away. That is in Chapter 10.

Well it is late and I am finally going to sleep well. Hope this was meaningful to you and anyone else who may read it. Especially the Isaiah 65:20 revelation.

God Bless,
Elle

David D. Reynolds March 25, 2016 at 8:11 am

Ezekiel 38 and 39 which are the Gog Magog war, must take place right toward the beginning of the Tribulation week, for some of the reasons cited. For seven years a remnant who stay behind in Israel will be burning the weapons as fuel (Zech 13, 14). Not everyone goes to Petra.

Ez 38:17-19 reveals Gog Magog will be AFTER the rapture as this is God’s Wrath and there is no wrath during the church age with the Bride still here. It is possible there is a bit of a gap between rapture and tribulation week. And the notion that Jesus will permit the burning of toxic weapons into his millennial kingdom seems inconceivable.

DayVid May 2, 2015 at 7:19 pm

Revelation 20:9….and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This shows God in heaven after the millennium. Doesn’t Rev 21-22 show God on the earth during that time?

Douglas May 2, 2015 at 10:32 pm

The book of Revelation is not written chronologically. Look carefully at 21-22. Those events speak about the City which is happening during the 1000 years.

Sam May 3, 2015 at 1:38 pm

I would also like to add to what I wrote in April. If you read Ezekiel 40-48. Jeremiah 31:38, Zechariah 14. These were all written about the earthly Jerusalem that would be on the new earth during the millennium. Didn’t you read how it gave specific names of the old Jerusalem’s boundaries like the corner gate and the tower of Hannanel in some of those books. Also what about the land boundaries for all the tribes of Israel that God said He would give to the Jewish people in Gen. and Ezekiel 40-48. If the New Jerusalem were to land on the same area where God said He would give that small area of land to the Jewish people. It would overtake that area because the new Jerusalem would be too large. So you really don’t make too much sense if that’s your understanding of it. But hay I guess you’ve done your homework too. This message is for Doug.

David D. Reynolds March 25, 2016 at 8:14 am

No way can New Jerusalem land on the earth. Hover somewhere above, yes. It is about 1/3 the area of the United States! So it will come down, but not all the way.

sam April 12, 2015 at 4:20 pm

I don’t understand how the new Jerusalem could come down to the new earth at the millennium and be the same city as the one in Ezekiel 40-48. The city in Ezekiel can not and I will say again, can not be the same city as the new Jerusalem. First of all the measurements of the earthly Jewish Jerusalem in Ezekiel is 4500 measures in the king James Bible. That means it will be 10 miles each side. The New Jerusalem will have 1500 miles each side and also the new Jerusalem will have no temple but the earthly Jerusalem in Ezekiel 40-48 will have a temple on the new earth. In Ezekiel 48 the Lord said that the city would be ROUND ABOUT eighteen thousand measures that’s 10 miles each side and 40 miles all around the city. Please if anyone can correct me if I’m wrong. Sam

David Reynolds August 3, 2013 at 4:15 pm

Sir, this excites me as it squares exactly with my own studies. I used to hear about the heavens rolling up like a scroll and everything being nuked and the Lord creating a new heaven and new earth. Well, the heavens rolling up thing is in the first batch of judgments in Revelation, for one thing.

As you say, what kind of paradise will this be unless the re-creation is more of a process. We read many O.T. passages and it almost reads like the Genesis creation account with all the Lord’s “I will” and “It shall be.” He is the Creator. Nothing says He is going to “start from scratch” as it were. As we read the accounts of all the changes from the very setting of his foot on the Mount of Olives, the descriptions sound to me like Jesus is giving the planet a giant makeover. Healing waters flow forth everywhere. Plants begin to flourish and provide fruit…the Isaiah descriptors, Ezekiel, Zechariah… it sounds wonderful!

He is God. He does not need to yank us out of this dimension, start from scratch, then recreate all the raw materials.

So far I have just read your article because I searched and thought maybe I was crazy. Now I see if I am, I have company!

Alan December 22, 2012 at 8:57 am

Jack Kelley of GraceThruFaith holds this view. Check out Matthew 19:28 and Acts 3:21, if you haven’t already. Isaiah 65-66 and Ezekiel 47:12 seem to make Rev 21 concerning New Jerusalem and Rev 22 earth – during the Millennium, not the ‘eternal state’

Peter November 28, 2012 at 8:26 am

Greetings from W.Australia!

Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead [man] and every living creature in the sea died (Rev 16:3).

Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. (Rev 16:4).

Some will be familiar with recent reports from various countries across the globe of the condition and appearance of some rivers and coastines. Having just read the local news and then visiting Mr. Hamp’s website (which I like to check out every so often) found this timely article regarding one of Australia’s most famous and popular beaches in Sydney – Bondi Beach. It’s a very timely reminder of God and His word.

It’s worth a look:

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/national/bondi-beach-closes-as-red-algae-moves-in/story-fndo4gtr-1226524729541

I realize the upheaval in the earth with regard to volcanoes, earthquakes, floods and so on is nothing new, but they seem to be happening with more intensity in the last few years (or is just that I look at different news to the (also intense) constant trivia and entertainment they show in mainstream media news?). Then in combination with situation across middle east, more publicity regarding the benefits of RIDF chips in humans, UFOs, social breakdown, drugs, abortion, economy collapse, terrorism, insane crimes, and other wickedness, it makes the above scripture and other verses even more timely. And this is just the beginning so we are not to despair! Thank God for a fair warning!

ps… Perth metro currently being hit by big strong winds and stormy weather for the next few days. 🙂 Usually does some damage around the place. 🙂

Maranatha!

mique November 27, 2012 at 10:40 pm

I love your post but please reconcile Revelations 20: 4b-7 it seems that upon Christ return those that are in Christ (dead and alive) will begin reigning with him for 1000 yrs. (the 1st resurrection). The rest of the people (wicked alive and wicked dead) will not survive Christs return to the earth…nor will the earth itself. (2 Thes. 1:7,8, 2 Thes 2:8, Rev:19,17-18).Satan will be bound for 1000 yrs. (Rev 20:2) then loosed (v.7). Satan is bound by circumstances…not literal chains (Mark5:3,4) Satan is then loosed by the new circumstances of the 2nd resurrection (ALL wicked dead made alive…wicked dead are ALL who were NOT redeemed at the 1st resurrection,
those who DID worship the beast and his image, those who DID NOT reign with Christ during the 1000 yrs.-Rev. 20:4-7.)THEN Satan goes out to deceive the wicked resurrected to gather them in battle against the saints (Rev20:8-10). God sends fire to destroy them…devil cast into Lake of Fire…. UPON Christs return there are NO more chances. You are in one of Two categories….you will be in one of two resurrections…There is no second rapture nor a regathering of any presumed against Him at his coming (2 Thes:8-12, the flood in Noahs day, Sodom & Gomorrah, Matt 24:39)

douglashamp November 27, 2012 at 10:58 pm

Mique, I don’t understand how you can say that Satan will not be bound by literal chains when it says in Rev 20:1-2 that an angel comes with a chain and bounds him. Don’t we also see in 2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6 that there are currently angels in chains. I take those to be literal chains. They may not be made of iron, but so what. They are made of something which the angels cannot break. They are comprised of trans-dimensional material. The 2nd resurrection (of the wicked dead) happens after the thousand years are up and after Satan goes out to deceive the world. That is also the time when death and hades are cast into the lake of fire which we know must coincide with 1 Cor 15:24-26 when the last enemy, death, is destroyed.

“Then [comes] the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (1Cor 15:24) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (1Cor 15:25) The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death.” (1Cor 15:26)

I guess I am confused. Help me out.

Mique November 29, 2012 at 9:37 pm

I arrived at the understanding of chains in ALL three
scriptures (2Pet, Jud6, Rev20) as being figurative and not literal by using the
Bible and a study of the original Greek words. In 2Pet and Jude the Gk words (2
different words) are not the same words used for chain ANYWHERE else in the
scriptures. The other uses for the word “chain” (Gk-halusis) all point to LITERAL chains of bondage (whether earthly or
heavenly), using the English [noun] words
‘fetters/bonds/chains” to describe them with NO FIGURATIVE interpretation. In
2Pet & Jude however the Gk Words used for chains have both literal and
figurative interpretations, using figurative descriptions such as “impediments,
disability, preference, to keep in suspense in the mind,” to name a few. (FYI
the accompanying word with “chains” in both scriptures is “darkness” the word used
for darkness in these scriptures are also ONLY located in these scriptures. It
translates to “cloud” rather than “shadow of obscurity” as it is in EVERY other
scripture using the word darkness….Which again appears to point to a
non-literal interpretation of the complete
phrase “chains of darkness”)

My understanding is
that the chains of 2Pet and Jude are NOT literal because (1) scriptures tell us
that in regards to literal (earthly) chains, spiritual demonic forces cannot be
held by them (Mark 5:3,4) and (2) I did not assume that the chains are literal (trans-dimensional)
as they would still simply be described as “fetters/bonds/chains” and not a new
word for chains that gives several figurative explanations. (3) It is my understanding that these
scriptures of the angels being in “chains of darkness” are explained as the wicked angels being preserved here on earth (no longer
allowed residency in the heavenly
realm) until the day of judgment. (“angels which kept not their 1st
estate…he hath RESERVED (not bound) in everlasting chains under darkness (or suspension under the clouds)”. In Jud6 it states that “God spared not the angels…but
cast them down to hell and hath
DELIVERED (not bound) them to chains of
darkness”-2Pet 2:4.

So in regards to Rev20:1 it is easy to again arrive at a
figurative explanation of an angelic being limiting Satan’s power here on earth
via special circumstances rather than doing so with an actual key which locks
an actual chain ( earthly or trans-dimensional). I believe the scripture makes
it clear that the circumstances are that Satan is “bound/ restricted/ unable to
perform/ CHAINED” by the fact that there are no people alive on the earth at
this time. ( I Believe this was the vision that Jeremiah saw and Described in
Jer4:23-27). Rev20:4 reveals that the saints are reigning with Christ for the
millennium and ALL the wicked dead, referred to as “the rest of the dead [all
those not resurrected at Christ’s coming and all those destroyed by his coming]”
lived not AGAIN until the 1000 yrs. were finished (v.5). When the 1000 yrs. are
finished and the [wicked] dead live again, Satan is no longer bound by the
special circumstances of everyone on earth being dead (as the will be
resurrected. V.7) and it is ONLY THEN (after the 2nd resurrection)
that he is able to “go out to deceive the nations” and gather them for the
final battle against Christ and the Saints.

NOTE that the Bible says in Rev20:6 “Blessed and holy is he
that hath part in the 1st resurrection: on such the 2nd
death [ occurring TO the wicked AT the final battle AFTER the 1000 yrs] hath no
power”. Because there again are no people living and dying or resurrected from
the earth after Christ’s return for his people. There is the 1st
Resurrection of his Saints at his coming AND the 2nd Resurrection of
the Wicked after the 1000 years. There is the first death that (natural) man
experiences and the 2nd death that only has power over the wicked.

I must say that this is MY understanding of the scriptures
through personal study and I believe revelation of the Holy Spirit. We
understand that Revelations is not in chronological order throughout and must
be studied/revealed and not merely read to make any sense at all to the natural
mind. I in NO way claim to have it all figured out but I feel the scriptures
undeniable reveal that upon Christ’s return to earth for his people (AKA “The
rapture” as described in 1Thes4:16-18) the two categories of people (saved and
unsaved) have already been determined and there are no people still working
things out here on earth during the saints millennial reign with Christ. At the
time of Rapture, the Lord “shall be revealed from heaven …TAKING VENGEANCE on them that know not God and obey not the
gospel… (2Thes1:7,8). In addition, 2Thes2:8 states that the “wicked”
(translated in the Gk in this passage as the lawless transgressors) will be revealed, CONSUMED with the spirit
of God and DESTROYED by the brightness of His (Jesus) coming.

David Reynolds November 28, 2014 at 5:02 pm

Revelation 20 is a natural parenthetic chapter that jumps ahead to the end of the millennial period just to close out the gathering of all evil described in the closing of Chapter 19. Chapter 21 John continues the narrative of the end of the Tribulation.

Q: If the saints return With Christ, and we dwell in New Jerusalem as our home, we do not get to join the party for a thousand years? The lowering of New Jerusalem is in the same passage as the beginning of the New Heaven and Earth. That would not make sense. No, right after the Tribulation, we return with Christ while in New Jerusalem. “Behold the Bride!” We aren’t stuck up there for a thousand years waiting the millennium out.

Richard A November 27, 2012 at 9:36 am

In light of your interpretation that Dan 7:18 equates the Saints with the Jews, where does this leave the Church and the saved non-Jewish survivors?

douglashamp November 27, 2012 at 10:16 am

We are grafted in and we are taken with those who are hidden away (Isa 26:19-21).

Lookingup November 27, 2012 at 9:12 am

Lots to think about and reconcile here, Doug.
1.) Where will all of the folks still alive going into the Millenium going to be while Jesus reforms the new earth?
2.) There will still be sin during the Millenium since there will still be people in fleshly bodies, so the earth will still be affected by the sin curse during the Millenium. It seems premature to make a new earth until the end-of-millenium battle with Satan per Revelation 20:7-9 and the second death when all sin is judged. The purpose of the New Earth is that EVERYTHING will be new and prepared for a sinless, resurrected population.
3.) The new earth of Revelation 21 has no sea, yet Revelation 20 says the sea will give up the dead for the final judgment.
4.) If the Lord was going to create a New Heaven and New Earth for the Millenium, it seems He would have given John the vision of it in chronological order somewhere around Revelation 20:4 just like the rest of the book is chronological.
Jesus will have some healing of the earth to do when He returns, but He doesn’t have to create a whole new earth to do it. His presence can bring a peaceful state to the animal kingdom, too.

c November 27, 2012 at 9:26 am

Maybe you should listen to this CD first and then post my friend! Doug does reconcile most of the things you point out. He has done his homework but you judge a book by its cover.

LookingUp November 27, 2012 at 5:41 pm

Excuse me, but I didn’t even know there was a CD. I was deeply touched by the gentleness of your comment.

Paul December 6, 2012 at 1:16 pm

Good reply. A soft answer turneth away wrath… 🙂

…And your questions are interesting ones.

douglashamp November 27, 2012 at 10:15 am

Hi Lookingup, you ask some well thought out questions and I have thought them. Very briefly though…I don’t know where the people will be when he recreates it. However, even if my point were wrong,1) there still would be people on the earth (the sheep) that would need protection of some sort from his fire and the melting mountains. 2) Concerning sin, it says there will not be any in the CITY not the earth in general. 3) The SEA (singular) is a result of flood. In the beginning God made SEAS (plural). The new earth will have SEAS once again. 4) Revelation is not in chronological order. I am going to include an appendix to my book on that. Case and point, Rev 6:14 all the islands and all the mountains are moved out of their place. Rev 16:20 says that all the mountains fled away. Rev 20:11 speaks about the one on the throne from whose face heaven and earth fled away. I do discuss this in my lectures. But briefly, it is an aorist which means that it has no aspect; hence it could be translated “had fled away” referring back to something already happened. Here is another example, Rev 16:19 “Babylon was remembered before God” yet we already heard in Rev 14 that Babylon had fallen, fallen. We then see in detail the fall of Babylon in Rev 17 and 18. Thus when we get to Rev 21 and 22, they are details that fit inside Rev 20. Think of it like Gen 1 and 2. Gen 1 has the 7 day overview and Gen 2 has the details of just day six. Thanks for the thought provoking questions!

LookingUp November 27, 2012 at 7:07 pm

Thanks for the reply, Doug. I could get past pretty much everything you’ve said except for the part about sin. Rev 21:4 says after John saw the new heavens and the new earth, God said, “there will be no longer death.” There will be death during the Millenium because there will still be people in the flesh – the sheep – and as long as there’s flesh, there will be sin, and death is the wages of it. There will be people during the Millenium who are not saved, because they join Satan in his rebellion at the end of it. Then, after Satan is thrown in the lake of fire, John said, “THEN I saw a great white throne.” All of the lost are judged, and “death and hades are also thrown into the lake of fire.” There will be no more death after the Great White Throne judgment which can only happen if there’s no more sin anywhere. Flesh=sin=death.

Another thought. I’m sure you know numbers are symbolic; six the number of man; seven the number of completion; eight the number of new beginning. We are now at the end of the 6th millenium since creation and completing the rule of man; the 7th Millenium will be the rule of God; the 8th “Millenium” will be a new beginning. In Rev 21:5, Jesus said, “behold, I am making everything new.” That signifies the beginning of a time after the completion of the 7th Millenium.

douglashamp November 27, 2012 at 8:06 pm

Remember, there is no death in the New Jerusalem which comes down to earth. Revelation 22:14-15 make sense through my lens because outside the city are wicked people

“Blessed [are] those who do His commandments [OR wash their garments (I prefer the latter rendering)], that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14) But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.” (Rev 22:15) Rev 22:2 also makes sense because the leaves of the trees of life are for the healing of the nations. If this is supposedly in the eternal state, as is commonly assumed, then who needs healing? What happens is the interpretations become very muddled and non-descript. If the City comes down at the beginning of the Millennium, then there are people that need to be healed i.e. get their new bodies.

Blessings

Bryan December 11, 2012 at 7:07 pm

Doug,

Here are some thoughts just to take note of. I understand completely where you are coming from on these issues. However there seems to be something that doesn’t make sense.

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

Matthew 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.”

2 Peter 3:13 “13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We must remember that just a few verses earlier about the day of the elements melting and the heavens beings dissolved, it is preceded by the statement “a day with the LORD is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” So this does not mean that the Day of the LORD (singular day) is the same as Day of the LORD (thousand year reign) and vice versa at least in 2 Peter.

Isaiah 66: 22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. ”

Now we can see something quite interesting in regards to the Millennium.

Isaiah 2:3 “And MANY PEOPLE SHALL GO AND SAY, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: FOR OUT OF ZION SHALL GO FORTH THE LAW, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

In the Millennium, the Law goes forth as a mandate of the Messiah. Nations are even required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:16 “And it shall come to pass, that EVERYONE THAT IS LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS THAT CAME AGAINST JERUSALEM,shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to KEEP THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES.”

So since until Heaven and Earth pass away not one jot of the Law can pass away, and since the Law is taught to the fullest in the Millennium, including what would seem to be sacrifices, from Ezekiel 40-48, and the New Heavens and Earth are not cursed like the first, then we can conclude that the New Heavens and Earth are after the Millennium not before it. If the Law of God cannot pass until all is fulfilled (which incidently is heaven and earth passing away,) then we have a huge problem in interpreting a new Creation before the Millennium. Also, during the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, we see that during this time the heaven and earth flee from His face. I know you addressed this as being able to be taken in past tense, yet the entire context of Revelation 20, 21, and 22 is the end of the thousand years, the final battle before the Great White Throne Judgment, the destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire, and finally the New Heavens and the New Earth. Also, keep in mind that the Millennium will have a physical temple as in Ezekiel 40-48, and that in the New Jerusalem there is no need for a temple, the sun, or the moon. For God and the Lamb are its temple and light. This cannot take place at the beginning of the Millennium, since the Millennium has a functioning temple and the New Jerusalem does not need one. Which would only make sense, since sacrifices will not be there in a creation with no death, and all men will at that point live righteously and know Him. Outside are dogs etc. is correct by default, since there will be no way to enter it unless we are redeemed forever in a glorified body. Notice that God wipes all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more sorrow or death or pain. If this happens during the Millennium, then we have a contradiction. After Satan is released, we have God annihilating His enemies by fire. This would certainly not make any sense to the way the city is described since the former things are described as being passed away. Thank you for your time,

Blessings and Shalom

Bryan

Doug Hamp December 11, 2012 at 7:33 pm

Hi Bryan,

I really appreciate your feedback – which is why I posted all of this. Incidentally, I go into great detail in my 26-hour class (The Messianic Age) and of course my new book. Let me address your comments, which are good insights to say the least. The connection between Matthew 5:18 and Isaiah 2:3 is great. However, I submit to you that you have the same dilemma as do I: we see that the day of the Lord is the day in which the heavens will pass away. After the trib the world is racked (Isa 24:20). All the islands and mountains have fled away (Rev 6:14; 16:20). The world is thoroughly devastated and all the waters have turned to blood. Bottom line: the Lord has to do something to fix the earth before we live on it.

The next thing to consider is Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Highest will receive the kingdom forever, inheriting it forever and ever.’ (Dan 7:18) – this kingdom (the millennium) will never, ever, ever(!) pass away. This is a real pain to synthesize with the traditional view. When we have the new heavens and earth at the beginning of the millennium suddenly everything fits and the Jews are at the center of God’s plan as he promised to Abraham, etc.

Paul December 13, 2012 at 3:48 am

Can I jump in?

Speaking of Daniel… Doug, I believe I’ve heard you saying that the ESV is often more faithful to the meaning of the Hebrew than is the KJV. I took this on board and I’ve been using the ESV online. However, whilst verse 26a in the KJV reads, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself”, which suggests Christ’s substitutionary Atonement (i.e. that He was “cut off” not for Himself, but for us), in the ESV, it reads simply, “And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing”, which sounds awful (“an anointed one”? “shall have nothing“?). You’re able to read the original — how would you translate it?

And also, I found this video on your friend Gary Stearman’s Prophecy In The News: is this the correct way to divide up the seven and sixty-two weeks? I’d be interested to hear how you do it!

God bless,

Paul.

Paul December 13, 2012 at 3:50 am

…Sorry! I neglected to mention that I was looking at Daniel chapter 9. …But you probably didn’t need to be told that, anyway!

Doug Hamp December 13, 2012 at 10:36 am

I haven’t really advocated the ESV – though it is OK. I especially like the ISV (International Standard Version). It is a new translation but does a great job. I think all the acronyms can be confusing. 🙂 The Hebrew of Daniel 9:26 says: יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין ל֑וֹ yikaret mashiakh v’ein lo. The messiah (annointed one) will be cut (off) and there is nothing to (for) him. That is the most literal translation I can give. It is challenging to render that is more understandable English. Whether annointed one or messiah – it makes no difference. The harder question is v’ein lo – how to translate that? “Have nothing” is a fair translation. We then have to interpret it. A good translation renders the words as literally as possible without offering interpretation. Bibles like the Message give lots of interpretation mixed with the translation. So long as the interpretation is accurate then it makes for a wonderful version of the Bible. However, one has to trust the translator to also be the interpreter and I don’t ever recommend that.

Paul December 13, 2012 at 4:12 pm

Ah! I think I must have mis-heard — the similarity between “ESV” and “ISV” would have been enough to confuse me! Thanks for clearing that up.

And thank you for your translation. As you say, it’s a difficult translation to understand, really — “have nothing” sounds like the “anointed one” kinda lucked out! Maybe the KJV translators used a little poetic licence in their rendering of that verse…

…And I wouldn’t touch The Message, as I want to read a translation, not some guy’s paraphrase!

James L March 28, 2014 at 1:34 pm

Doug
There is no dilemma because Rev 16 is speaking about a battle in the Land promised to Abraham not the whole Earth . This battle is to clear the land for the restoration of the land before the gathering of the resurrected Saints. Soon after this God will bring the nations to a complete economic collapse .. The battle in the Jezreel Valley called the battle of Armageddon which in Hebrew means the ‘mountain of Megiddo which is also a place in that valley. There is also no dilemma in the timing of the rapture because the purpose will be to remove all mankind from the earth so it can be renewed and made ready for the Heavenly Jerusalem to be place upon this earth. During this renewal will be the Great White Throne Judgement off every man,woman and child that ever lived.. So the Saints will be those living and dead that Christ purchased back for God is the rapture which will happen after Satan is loosed and deceives the nations outside of Israel and is totally destroyed .
Plus your dilemma with Dan 7;18 with forever and ever would be reconciled by realizing the word translated forever just means age or ages

David Reynolds August 3, 2013 at 4:06 pm

If you wish to strictly follow the chronological, you have problems. Revelation 21 is AFTER the great white throne judgment. Here is the thought. If we do not get the New Heaven and New Earth until all the wicked are judged, who are kept out of the New Earth? Who are the wicked “without” the city? It seems redundant to say that liars, thieves, etc. cannot enter if they no longer exist.

Dave Reynolds April 6, 2016 at 12:14 pm

Some are out out that the renewed earth will somehow be corrupt because of sinful man or Satan rising up in the end to rebel, as though the Lord is unable to refresh afterwards. Remember, Satan was in the garden Before the Fall!

Bryan December 2, 2012 at 8:15 am

Isaiah 20

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20Come,
my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee:
hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be
overpast.

21For,
behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of
the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.

During the Second Coming we are taken into the chambers to protect us from the Wrath of God. Christ arrives on the Feast of Trumpets followed by the 10 Days of Awe between Trumpets and Yom Kippur while the wrath is poured out on the Earth. Then on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, we exit the chambers. Then 75 days later in resuming the 1335 day count, we land on Hannukah where the Temple is rededicated. It is clear that the Third Temple mentioned in Scripture is Millennial, not built by Antichrist. The Great Tribulation begins the day after winter and the day before a Sabbath per Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:20 “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”

Matthew 24:21 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

Many people miss this important statement by Christ, that the Great Tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation occurs during the spring time after the equinox and before a Saturday (evening to evening would be Friday sundown.). 1260 days from this Day to the end of the 1260 must be a Feast of Trumpets since the Fall Feasts have not been fulfilled yet. So this means that the 1290 days in Daniel must start before the 1260 days.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

The sun shall be darkened (partial solar eclipse) (not totally dark)

The moon shall not give it’s light (New Moon) (Day of Trumpets occurs on the New Moon)

Stars shall fall from heaven (constellations and heavenly bodies on the lower ecliptic in the fall actually look like they are crashing to Earth. Orion is a great example of this.)

So on this future Feast of Trumpets there will be a partial solar eclipse and a New Moon by default and of course during the season of fall. He is quoting Isaiah 13.

Isaiah 13:9 “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners
thereof out of it.”

Isaiah 13:10 “For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give
their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon
shall not cause her light to shine.”

So from all of this we know he must return in the Fall on a Feast of Trumpets on a day with a partial or even annular solar eclipse. Not to say that supernatural signs won’t happen, its just that Yahweh is usually literal about everything.

So perhaps since the 70 Weeks of Daniel and Jubilee Cycle point to Feast of Trumpets 2016 we can deduce that the 1260 days starts in March of 2013 specifically the eveing of March 21 to the evening of March 22,2013. Also the 33rd anniversary of the Georgia Guide Stones. We know how the occultists love their 33s. This is also a big blow to the 7 year tribulation theory, since Christ makes it clear it begins when Antichrist defiles the temple. Daniel 9:27 is talking about confirming or making strong an already existing covenant as in Jeremiah 31 with both Houses of Israel. In the middle of the seven year period the Messiah is cut off. So this leaves one last 3.5 year period left to end history. There are two individuals referred to in Daniel 9 not one. The Messiah and the anti messiah. Daniels seventy weeks also says the phrase “even in troublesome times.” This is a hint that it has a dual fulfillment in the End Times. 70 weeks can also be taken to mean 70 “Feast of Weeks” or Shavouts. The actual decree to restore and build Jerusalem and the Israel state was given in 1947 by the United Nations, followed by the events of 1948. If you count seventy Pentecosts from that Year you end up at 2017, with Messiah coming in the 69th year, being 2016. The layers of prophecy are astounding. He is coming soon.

douglashamp December 2, 2012 at 9:54 am

I like your thoughts on the Temple being restored, hence, Hannukah. That makes a lot of sense. I have been trying to make sense of that 1335 days / 75 days. I am positing the idea that the temple of God in heaven (currently) will leave the holy city and be upon the earth during the millennium.

As far as the 2nd coming in 2016. I hope that you are right! Have you read my paper, The Fig Tree Has Budded? I see a window of the Lord’s return from 2018-2028. I like your dates better, but can you prove that biblically? Blessings.

Bryan December 2, 2012 at 10:09 am

Thank you for the reply Doug. I cannot take credit for this, as I have been lead to a teaching called “Daniel Unsealed” by 119 Ministries” by the Spirit. While I have my own thoughts on the End Times, they laid the foundation to any other thoughts that I can piece together. I just thought it was interesting that in 1947 you have the same decree to restore Jerusalem and the blood moons in the middle of all of it. I figured it was an important teaching to share with everyone. I tried sharing it on another site and the entire thread was deleted. I have also considered by 2028 as well, since this would be the generation after 1948 and Israel being restored. One thing everyone can agree on is He is most certainly coming in our time. I have been blessed by your teachings and my family as well, and I am sure this teaching will bless you. Here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUk6mKotx0c They also teach Torah, but please do not let that turn you off. They are honest men, who are humble enough to correct themselves based on insights of others and tell everyone to actually see if their teachings hold up to Scripture. I highly recommend this teaching. It has also blessed us in so many ways. You can verify everything by research. I have done my own research on these matters and everything lines up perfectly. I hope this helps.

Bryan December 2, 2012 at 10:27 am

Also, I will certainly look into your paper on the Fig Tree budding. The fact that Jesus says that the day and hour of heaven and earth is unknown to all but the Father, and the Second Coming is different from it leads me to believe in the New Earth after the Millennium. Yet as you have provided verses to the contrary this will take some prayer and consideration. Same thing with the Gog and Magog War. A very difficult two chapters in Ezekiel since on the one hand this conflict involves certain nations and not all nations, and yet on the other has a few parallels to the Great Day of God almighty. Then on another note, He mentions the House of Israel being in the land again, which makes me think it at least one of the two chapters is about the Millennial Gog Magog War. What are your thoughts on this conflict? It is a very difficult verse to decipher without serious prayer and study and it has been on my mind for weeks especially with the Gaza conflict that had heated up. May God bless you in all you do Doug, and thank you for your insights. Many men do not want to go where you and I go. It is quite saddening.

Paul December 2, 2012 at 1:03 pm

I can’t help but wonder whether the business with Gog in Ezekiel and the business with Gog in Revelation might not refer to the same event (i.e. that ‘ole Gog makes only one appearance and then he’s toast). The timing reads similarly (after many days, in the latter years, when the thousand years are ended, etc.); the conditions are the same (Israel dwelling at peace in the land without walls, etc. — and they ain’t at peace now); the players are the same (Gog and his confederates vs. God’s chosen); and the outcome is identical (a summary dispatch by God Himself via fire from Heaven. …Even that bit where “an evil thought” comes into Gog’s head is explained in the Revelation account, as it says twice that he & his crew were deceived by Satan.

Whaddya think, Bryan, Doug? Am I onto something, or has listening to too much Barry Manilow rotted my brain? 😉

Bryan December 3, 2012 at 6:41 pm

Well Paul, I have noticed something about Gog and Magog. Ezekiel 38 seems to parallel Revelation 20 quite well. Notice that both accounts end in a different manner of defeat for Gog and his armies. Also it just so happens the inhabitants in the land are also counted as different and in different circumstances. This is just my theory, yet it seems to fit.

Ezekiel 38:8 “After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is GATHERED OUT OF MANY PEOPLE, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it IS BROUGHT FORTH OUT OF THE NATIONS, AND THEY SHALL DWELL SAFELY ALL OF THEM.”
Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

Ezekiel 38:14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?”

Here we see that Israel is regathered from many people all of them including the exiled House of Israel. This war ends in fire for Gog.

Then in Ezekiel 39, we notice that the exiles of the House of Israel (the northern 10 tribes) are not yet dwelling safely in the land and are actually from that day forward coming to know Him as their God. This is the day I have spoken of He says. Notice that the House of Israel is burying the bodies. Notice that the birds are filled with the flesh of the slain and that this time it says they fall on the open field instead of the fire and brimstone from Chapter 38. So we know that the events described seem to be separate timings since in one case the House of Israel is there dwelling safely regathered, and in the other case they come to know Him and cleanse the land for seven months after the slaughter. So it could be that Ezekiel 38 parallels Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 39 actually seems to parallel the Battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat where Christ defeats the armies of Antichrist. Since the text in Ezekiel 38 says that Israel is regathered and living safely, it cannot be that this is the war between Christ and all nations. We know that the Gentiles trample Jerusalem for 42 months or 1260 days from Revelation 11. Far from living in safety. So in short 39 seems to be 1000 years before 38. This is of course conjecture on my part but if you understand the Two Houses of Israel Scripture becomes a lot clearer. Jews are the House of Judah and the House of Israel is the northern 10 tribes that became Gentiles. They were divorced for their sins and harlotry and because of the Messiah they can be grafted in and brought back to the covenants of promise. He came for His lost sheep.

Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man’s bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 SO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD FROM THAT DAY FORWARD.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Paul December 5, 2012 at 2:49 pm

Hi Bryan.

I was interested to hear your ideas: I was half-expecting someone to refute my theory that Ezekiel 38 & Revelation 20 describe the same thing, so it was nice to hear that someone else thinks there might be something in it! Anyway, here are my thoughts about what you wrote…

Maybe I’m being obtuse, but it strikes me that the manner of defeat for Gog & co. is pretty much the same in Ezekiel 38 as it is in Revelation 20 — i.e. Israel doesn’t need to lift a finger, as God intervenes from Heaven and stops the bad guys Himself with fire and so forth. The apparent differences between the two accounts are due, I think, merely to the fact that the Revelation account is so much terser than that in Ezekiel (a couple of verses in Revelation as opposed to two whole chapters in Ezekiel), and so the Revelation account merely gives the salient points.

With regard to your view on Ezekiel 39, although I’m not averse to the idea of a non-linear chronology, I do see Ezekiel 39 as simply a continuation of Ezekiel 38, since it seems to follow on directly (and the chapter divisions were not in the original). I agree with you that the account of the birds & beasts eating the slain sounds very like the Supper of the Great God at the end of Revelation 19, but I guess that such a feast for scavenging animals could simply be “standard practice” when God makes a great slaughter of His enemies, and need not be tied directly to Revelation 19.

Something you wrote intrigued me… When you say, “Jews are the House of Judah and the House of Israel is the northern 10 tribes that became Gentiles”, this sounds rather like British Israelism (although in the latter case, it would be the Anglo-American peoples, and they wouldn’t be regarded as being Gentiles, but rather as Israelites suffering from what one might term “ethnic amnesia”). Can you tell me more about what you believe, here? It sounds interesting…

Bryan December 5, 2012 at 7:07 pm

Oh, sure Paul! To start off with I do not advocate British Israelism. It is flawed by specifying that the Lost Tribes are only a few ethnic groups of English peoples instead of a multitude of nations, and is very racial in presentation. To begin, Two House Theology for lack of a better description is a scriptural concept that actually makes the Bible even more alive and easier to piece together. Let me start from the beginning. First we have a prophecy in Genesis.

Genesis 48:

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. 19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and HIS SEED SHALL BECOME A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS.4 20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

So the descendents of Ephraim were to become the fullness of the Gentiles (mulitude of nations here in Hebrew is “melo ha goyim” or fullness of the gentiles.) Since Levi didn’t get the normal land inheritance, we now have Ephraim as receiving the allotment, since Levites had YHWH as their allotment, plus the tithes, thus leaving 12 tribes with land. Ephraim is synonymous with the northern 10 tribes of Israel, and Judah is synonymous with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, making the northern tribes the House of Israel under King Jeroboam, and the House of Judah under King Rehoboam. Rehoboam was the son of Solomon and grandchild of David. Jeroboam became king in the northern kingdom after Solomon decided to go after other gods being enticed by his wives to follow after them. So after the days of Solomon, the rebellion occured.

1 Kings 11: 28And the man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph. 29And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field: 30And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces: 31And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: 32(But he shall have one tribe for my servant David’s sake, and for Jerusalem’s sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:) 33Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father. 34Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant’s sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes: 35But I will take the kingdom out of his son’s hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes. 36And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there. 37And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel. 38And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. 39And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever. 40Solomon sought therefore to kill Jeroboam. And Jeroboam arose, and fled into Egypt, unto Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

41And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. 43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

The 10 tribes besides Judah and Benjamin refused to be under Rehoboam due to his failing to remove the burden that Solomon put upon them. So they rebelled and formed the Northern Kingdom of Israel with Jeroboam as king. This can be found in 1 Kings 12:1 since I do not want to flood the post with Scripture for ease of reading. So the House of Judah prepared to fight the House of Israel, yet God said that this was all His plan already and that it was from Him that this happened. 1 Kings 12:17-24. Jeroboam changed the Law and removed Levites from service and set up idols and whored after other gods. Now let us look at a remarkable thing.

HOSEA 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. 2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea: “Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry and children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by departing from the LORD.” 3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son. 4 Then the LORD said to him: “Call his name Jezreel, for in a little while I will avenge the bloodshed of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and bring an end to the kingdom of the House of Israel. 5 It shall come to pass in that day that I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.” 6 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him: “Call her name Lo-Ruhamah, for I will no longer have mercy on the House of Israel, BUT I WILL UTTERLY TAKE THEM AWAY. 7 Yet I will have mercy on the House of Judah, will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword or battle, by horses or horsemen.” 8 Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said: “Call his name Lo-Ammi, for you are not My people, and I will not be your God. 10 YET THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL SHALL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, WHICH CANNOT BE MEASURED OR NUMBERED. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ there it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ 11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and appoint for themselves one head; and they shall come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel!”

II KINGS 17:16 So they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, made for themselves a molded image and two calves, made a wooden image and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 And they caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and soothsaying, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and REMOVED THEM FROM HIS SIGHT; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone (which has Benjamin within it.)

Jeremiah 3:8 “8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and GIVEN HERE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE.”

After even the House of Judah was taken into captivity, they returned from Babylon yet the House of Israel never did. A few of the number of them came back for three years or so, yet even this did not last.

DEUTERONOMY 23:2 “No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD.”

So at least until 700 years had passed they could not return, since a generation 10 times would be 700 years. By the Law of Moses they were defiled illegitimate children for their deeds. Yet even then they did not hearken, so the punishment from Leviticus of seven times over comes into play. Leaving us with around 2009-2028 as the timeframe to restore the kingdom. Yet it is evident from heavenly signs and Scriptural evidence that the Messiah is most likely coming back in 2016. After all Daniel’s 70 Weeks pointed to His First Coming to the exact time, so why not the same for the Second Coming? Sorry about the long post but let’s continue.

Yet God prophesied that they would again be called His people and that the two kingdoms would become one again. That the House of Israel would be sifted among the Gentiles, and thus the prophecy is fulfilled of Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations. They became Gentiles after being divorced by Yahweh.

AMOS 9:8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth; yet I will not utterly destroy the House of Jacob,” says the LORD. 9 For surely I will command, and will sift the House of Israel among all nations [b’kal hagoyim], as grain is sifted in a sieve; yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.”

EZEKIEL 37:15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the House of Israel associated with him.’ 17 And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 18 And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in My hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in My rules and be careful to obey My statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children shall dwell there forever, and David My servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

JEREMIAH 23:3 But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the LORD. 5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.”

Matthew 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Jeremiah 31:31 describes the New Covenant for both Judah and Israel, and the Messiah would be brought forth to confirm this covenant.

Hosea 2:16 “16 And it shall be, in that day,” says the LORD, “that you will call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Master,'”

Hosea 2:19 “19 I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in lovingkindness and mercy;”

Hosea 2:20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the LORD. ”

So God is promising that the House of Israel will once again call God their Husband, and that He will remarry them. Yet there is a huge HUGE problem with Him saying this. It would break His Law of divorce and remarriage to the same husband. How is this possible? He can’t break His own Torah. How can this prophecy even come to pass and God still be holy?

DEUTERONOMY 24:1 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her MUST NOT TAKE HER BACK to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.”

God does not change and will not break His own Law. So how can this happen? This is the mystery of the Gospel. Paul teaches us this mystery in Romans Chapter 7.

Romans 7:1 “Or do you not know, brethren (for I SPEAK TO THOSE WHO KNOW THE LAW), that the Law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the Law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; BUT IF HER HUSBAND DIES SHE IS RELEASED FROM THE LAW OF HER HUSBAND, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.”

So Jesus came for the sins of all mankind, and to defeat death and Satan, and also for another purpose. He came to reconcile and graft in the exiles of the House of Israel back into the covenants of promise and thus back into Israel. The House of Israel became Gentiles but now through the Messiah the “door of the sheep” they can be part of God’s nation once again! Is this not astounding? Since the Messiah died, and rose again, the Law in Deuteronomy was lifted, and thus made the remarriage again legal to do! This is what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Revelation is about. Yahweh came in the flesh as Yahushua the Son of God, in order to save mankind and restore the House of Israel back! The mystery of the Gospel is finally revealed by Paul. I hope this helps explain what I believe to be the truth from the Scriptures. So next time someone says Jews remember that Jews are only a small part of Israel. The rest of them are being called back to Him especially now. This is not to say that only the descendants of the House of Israel are savable for all mankind is given the grace of salvation by grace through faith, but we are grafted into Israel as in Romans 11 and the olive tree that Paul is talking about. Sorry this post was so long, but hopefully this explains everything.

Bryan December 5, 2012 at 7:31 pm

As for more New Testament proof of the exiles of Israel, here are some Scriptures to consider.

James 1:1 “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,TO THE TWELVE TRIBES WHICH ARE SCATTERED ABROAD, greeting.

1
Peter 1:1 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,TO THE STRANGERS SCATTERED
THROUGHOUT Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,”

John 7:35 “Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall
not find him? will he go unto the DISPERSED AMONG THE GENTILES, and
teach the Gentiles?”

It’s
just something to think about while you’re studying Scripture.
Blessings my friends, and Doug have you reviewed the link I a gave you
and come to any conclusions yet? It is certainly quite amazing and I
hope it has blessed you and given more insight into End Times.

Paul December 6, 2012 at 12:38 pm

The first line of James is one I’d overlooked, really: I guess I thought it was simply addressing the Jews (i.e. the former inhabitants of Judea) in the Diaspora. …But then the designation “twelve tribes” is rather unusual, isn’t it?

The other two references could indeed be to Judeans in the Diaspora (particularly the first, since Peter was the Apostle to the Jews), but considering them together with James, one begins to wonder whether they might indeed be addressing lost Israel.

Anyway, I’d be glad to hear what you think of my comments on your previous post, Bryan — particularly how you envision the regathering into the Land of the lost northern tribes. It sure is interesting…

Bryan December 6, 2012 at 5:38 pm

I’m sorry I did not clarify Paul. It has been a long journey of Scriptural discovery, and we are never done haha. Yes Jim Staley has a similar teaching about this subject, but does not touch on all the verses. The illegitimate children verse was just interesting and could be taken that way. It is not definite, just interesting. That wasn’t the numbers though. What I was trying to convey was this:

Leviticus 26:18 “And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE for your sins.”

Leviticus 26:21 “And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring SEVEN TIMES more plagues upon you according to your sins.”

Ezekiel 4:4 “Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.”

Ezekiel 4:5 “For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.”

So from Ezekiel Chapter 4 we have a number for the House of Israel to bear their guilt and sin. The number of days he is told to lie on his side as a demonstration is 390 days which God says are the number of years. So 390 years. So we would end up with around 332 BC to 331 BC. Obviously this still did not happen at that time, and the Messiah had not even yet come to make it possible. Since they were still exiled the law in Leviticus 26 of seven times over punishment applies to them, and a diligent person who earnestly seeks the Creator shall understand how to apply the Scriptures to other ones. Isaiah 28:10 comes to mind. By applying this law to the House of Israel we then end up taking 390 years times seven coming out to 2,730 years. So we will then subtract 721/ 722 BC since we are going upwards into AD. Since there is no 0 year like you said and it goes 1 BC to 1 AD, we end up surprisingly to our time now. 2009/2010 as the time frame to start to restore the lost house of Israel. Remember that the new covenant is only with The House of Israel and the House of Judah, not Gentiles. We cannot be a Gentile believer in the Messiah, because through Him we are saved and thus, a part of Israel. Gentile even means “nations” or “of the nations.” According to the Law of Moses, anyone who shall come to faith in the one true God is taken out of the nations and equal with those who are native Israelites. They are the same before the LORD. I think the math adds up quite well. Like Doug pointed out earlier, 2028 is the latest year that Christ could return, since the generation (70 to 80 years) that sees Israel restored as a nation is the same to witness the Second Coming. Like 119 ministries discovered in their End of Days teachings, Daniels 70 Weeks seem to point to 2016 as the year the Messiah returns, as does the creation itself. Often times prophecies have multiple fulfilments. For example, I find it strange that nobody ever notices what Gabriel says in this prophecy about “even in troublesome times.” I have never seen anyone at all point that out. Ever. Yet this was a gift from the Father to see, and those who seek Him really do find Him. Its amazing how what God gives each of us in revelation about Himself and His Scriptures edifies the findings of others, making everything work for the good of those who love Him.

Now as for how I personally see the regathering of the exiles of the House of Israel, notice this verse in Matthew about the Second Coming. Then also these other ones.

Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Deuteronomy 30:4 “If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee”

Isaiah 27:13 “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.”

Ezekiel 34:12 “As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.”

Jeremiah 23:3 “And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.”

Hosea 13:10 “I will be thy king: WHERE IS ANY OTHER THAT MAY SAVE THEE IN ALL THY CITIES? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?”

Perhaps the Two Witnesses will have something to do with a Second Exodus much like Moses did in the first. They seem to be prophets of judgment on the nations and seem to have more miraculous powers than all before them to the extent that they please. Such would be needed to defend the people of God and themselves from modern day weaponry and the fallen angels/ Nephilim during this time. Just a theory though. What are your thoughts on the New Heavens and Earth though? For Doug has made some very very good points, yet I seem to find a few things that don’t line up with this.

Yahweh’s Blessings to you and yours,
Bryan

Paul December 9, 2012 at 9:03 am

Hi Bryan.

Apologies for the slow reply again…

The “Two House” idea is sort-of infectious — I was reading Luke 15 the other day, and found myself thinking that the prodigal son was lost Israel! (Two sons, of which the younger went away = two Kingdoms, with Ephraim younger than Judah; the errant son joining himself with a citizen of that country = scattered Israel mingling with the Gentiles; his wasting substance on harlots = their worshipping Gentile gods; feeding swine = Gentile practices; killing the fatted calf = something to do with Satan?; the older son’s indignation = modern Israel’s resistance to a wider in-gathering of ‘Gentiles’.) I think I might have been getting carried away!

Having had a look at 119 Ministries’ site, I’m still not entirely sure what I think about them. They certainly have their critics (the obvious accusation being that they are modern-day Judaisers trying to put Gentiles and Jews alike back under the Law), although I understand their position is that Salvation is still through faith, and that true, saving faith brings with it a desire to explore the Torah and to observe pretty much all the Law apart from the sections which Christ fulfilled (e.g. sacrifices, etc.). I don’t know what exactly they do with Galatians (they seem keener on James, unsurprisingly), but I haven’t heard all their teachings. I noticed also that they frequently seem to use unfamiliar translations of famous verses, without quoting the source of the translation. This makes me wonder how faithfully they are handling Scripture. What do you think of them Doug? (If you’re reading this!)

As for my thoughts on the New Heavens and Earth, I’m a fence-sitter: Doug has made some excellent points, but like you, I don’t think that everything is fully ironed out yet! …But then what do I know?! 🙂

By the way, is this site loading slowly for you? It seems to take longer and longer each time I come here: I don’t know whether it’s a server-side problem or whether the problem’s at my end…

By the way, thanks for your reply about the 70 weeks!

God bless,

Paul.

Bryan December 9, 2012 at 12:42 pm

The Scriptures certainly come alive when one understands that the House of Israel has nothing to do with Jews and are separate. No, you are not getting carried away. You just have eyes to see and ears to hear my friend. 119 ministries are very humble, friendly people, who are open to correction and input from everyone. They even go so far as to say don’t believe anything we say at all, and if what we say holds up to Scripture then so let it be, and if it doesn’t then we will fix it. More ministries need to be that way, instead of being closed to Dispensationalism not necessarily being the only way to interpret Scripture.

Galatians is a little difficult to decipher, since most people do not understand the context in which the letter was given. The sect that Paul was against was saying that Gentile converts had to observe the Law to be saved, which is a false Gospel of works. They had to do a certain number of things before they were considered saved, and the Jews in the sect were trying just to get a notch in their belt and brag about converts. Paul is trying to clarify that grace through faith in the Messiah saves as it always has (even Adam and Eve believed in the promise of redemption by Christ,) and that following the Law is out of loving God back and love instead of legalistic principles. Following the Law makes our faith alive and perfect living faith. Faith without works is dead. You do what you believe to be true, and you believe in what you do. Not just do. The letter of the Law is not what the point is. It is the attitude and state of heart in obeying the Law. It is pointless if it is just to observe it by letter. Does this make sense? He is explaining that legalism is bondage and that the real Gospel is freedom. They were trying to say that circumcision and the Law saves instead of faith first. Faith is required of us for salvation, and salvation is accompanied by the Law. As for the New Heavens and Earth, I am still putting it together and I will reply when I am ready. Doug has done a great job on this article. The site seems to be server related as I have had a few issues. No problem 🙂

Blessings from Yahweh,
Bryan

Paul December 10, 2012 at 11:47 am

“119 ministries are very humble, friendly people, who are open to correction and input from everyone. They even go so far as to say don’t believe anything we say at all, and if what we say holds up to Scripture then so let it be, and if it doesn’t then we will fix it.”

Yes, that’s a good sign: I still have problems with the way they handle Scripture, though! For example, I’ve just seen one of their “Just a Thought” videos in which they suggest that the reference in Isaiah 14:8 to the cedars & cypresses celebrating is about the abolition of Christmas in the Millennium (!) — when from the context the two trees are clearly a single Hebrew parallelism, and the passage is a poem painting a picture of how Lebanon will rejoice when she’s not being raided by Babylon all the time. When they say things like that, it doesn’t really inspire confidence in their interpretation of the rest of Scripture! …But that said, I find that I do agree with quite a lot of what they say (though they do sail close to the wind with some of the things they say about the Law — I’ve often thought that a new believer, watching some of their videos might well end up becoming easy pickings for legalists).

“More ministries need to be that way, instead of being closed to Dispensationalism not necessarily being the only way to interpret Scripture.”

I don’t quite understand what you mean, there: are you saying that more ministries should look beyond Dispensationalism, or that they should give Dispensationalism more consideration? My own church background is Reformed (i.e. Calvinistic), wherein Covenant Theology rules and Dispensationalism is generally looked upon with amusement (although without much interest or curiosity). I’ve gone the other way, though: I find Dispensationalism to be a more straightforward and convincing picture of God’s dealings with mankind, and have come to think that Calvinism is really rather a serious error, and misrepresents God’s character horribly. Dispensationalism’s critics — Calvinistic and Arminian alike — tend to point to things like the excesses and divisions which surrounded Darby, or failed predictions or some of the modern rapture-mania, and use this as a pretext to dismiss the whole concept. I don’t think this is altogether fair, though. …That said, my Dispensationalism is loosely held.

And I find your ‘Two House’ picture very interesting… 🙂

Shalom,

Paul.

Bryan December 11, 2012 at 4:35 pm

119 ministries usually makes what they are saying very clear. The context is about the actual fir trees and cedars (evergreen trees) rejoicing over the oppressor and the golden city ceasing to exist and the king of Babylon. Scriptures are often cyclical and sometimes have two or more fulfillments. They were simply noticing a parallel to Babylon falling (also in End Times) and evergreen trees (ancient pagans would use them to worship the sun gods) being happy and rejoicing. Of course pagan nations would use them in worshiping their gods, even to this day. An interesting parallel and nothing more really. Yet of course Christ would abolish Christmas in His Kingdom, considering it has nothing to really do with Him. He was born in the fall most likely on the Feast of Tabernacles (God dwelling with men.) I was trying to say that Dispensationalism is actually very flawed. God Himself says in Malachi chapter 3 that He does not change. He does not deal with men differently based on the time period we are living in, but is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Calvinism is indeed seriously in error also, because it teaches that God destined some men for eternal damnation and some for salvation because we are radically depraved (total depravation.) They use some verses like in Genesis 6 where the heart of man is evil continually ( in the context of fallen angels teaching them technology and mixing DNA) as a huge support, yet forget the context.This annhilates any chance for salvation by grace through faith, because faith and grace are where salvation comes from in the Messiah, and this is a choice on our part, wheras He may lead us to Him in whatever way possible. The Messiah can also be rejected, thus free will has a role. Take Paul for example. He used to persecute the believers, and then ended up being a great apostle. Both sides of the issue rather than one in his case. There are many failed predictions because many people outright reject the Feast Days of Yahweh, which are for all men, not Jews. From Scriptures alone without any sort of biased commentary we see that Christ returns on the Day of Trumpets AFTER the Great Tribulation and not before it. This means he cannot come at “any moment.” Paul even makes it clear that His Second Coming cannot happen until Antichrist is first revealed. Pre Trib is very ear tickling and what men want to hear. Pre Trib would go against the Biblical pattern of trials and tribulations in the biggest way possible. It also allows people to stick every verse in Revelation about persectution of believers on Jews. This makes no sense at all, since the Bible is clear that we will go through this time over and over. I dismiss the concept of Dispensationalism on the fact that God never changes, not on the Rapture, since that sorts itself out separately. I know many pre tribbers are sincere, but a biblical study shows the Day of the LORD the same as the meeting Christ in the clouds. Two Houses of Israel makes the Bible a lot more easy to decipher, and can help sort out timing of certain prophecies and help us envision the purposes of God a whole lot better.

Blessings,

Bryan

Paul December 12, 2012 at 9:41 am

“119 ministries usually makes what they are saying very clear.”

Yes, many of the videos I’ve seen have been clear, but others haven’t been so clear — and I frequently wonder how a new believer might interpret some of the stuff they say.

I still don’t think the passage in Isaiah refers to literal trees, but I do agree completely that there’ll be no “Christmas” in Christ’s Kingdom — only Biblical feasts.

“I was trying to say that Dispensationalism is actually very flawed. God Himself says in Malachi chapter 3 that He does not change. He does not deal with men differently based on the time period we are living in, but is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

Thanks for clearing up your position. There have been many strains of Dispensationalism: some have been pretty much heretical (saying that under “the Dispensation of Law”, people were saved through keeping the Law, etc.). I don’t hold a view anything like that!

God indeed is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, His Word to us, Holy Scripture, shows us that rather than giving us everything in one hit, He has instead gradually unveiled His Truth to mankind throughout the ages (so-called progressive revelation), and He deals with mankind in view of the light He has given them. I don’t think that this is a controversial statement, and believe it to be the picture found throughout Scripture.

“Calvinism is indeed seriously in error also, because it teaches that God destined some men for eternal damnation and some for salvation because we are radically depraved (total depravation.) They use some verses like in Genesis 6 where the heart of man is evil continually ( in the context of fallen angels teaching them technology and mixing DNA) as a huge support, yet forget the context.This annhilates any chance for salvation by grace through faith, because faith and grace are where salvation comes from in the Messiah, and this is a choice on our part, wheras He may lead us to Him in whatever way possible.”

I actually agree with Calvinism to the extent that all human beings have fundamentally sick/wicked/deceitful hearts (as God tells us through Jeremiah) and that our nature is evil rather than good (as Jesus Himself stated). The verses they use to back up this claim are sound. (It is very important to note that the verse you mention in Genesis 6 was not only for the pre-Flood Nephilim-ridden world: it is repeated immediately after the Flood, at the end of Genesis 8 — in case we post-Flood folks get too pleased with ourselves!)

The fatal problem with Calvinism is the one you identified — free will. God didn’t make us a bunch of robots. An unbeliever has free will and, even though he is a sinner, he can change his mind about his sin and start to hate it, and hate this sinful world, and mourn over how bad he is, and how wicked the world is, and begin to hunger and thirst for righteousness, humbling himself over his sin and repenting. This doesn’t make him righteous, nor even give him the power never to sin again (and he cannot boast, as he’s still a sinner), but the consistent testimony of Scripture is that if he does this, he will find favour with God. God is still the one who calls us to Christ, and it is He who saves us, not ourselves. But “total depravity” as defined under Calvinism is not right, no more than is “unconditional election”, “irresistible grace”, etc.. Calvinism is is a tightly closed but very rational system, from which it’s hard to break free.

With regard to your timing of Christ’s return, I think that most Dispensationalists would probably agree with you, since they distinguish between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

Me, I don’t really know, either way: I believe we’re in the End Times, and I try to be sensitive to what’s going on, but really I’m more interested in other parts of Scripture.

Particularly the Torah.

…Especially those parts ignored by most Christians (but which are always held up with glee by atheists and scoffers), like stoning to death women who, through fornication and adultery, cheat on their future husbands. The world says this is evil. But God states that punishment is right. With whom should we agree? Such questions make Christians squirm, unfortunately. It should not be so! Now, I know that as believers, we’re not under the Law, and are not commanded to stone anybody, but God gave the Law and we can’t just toss it in the trash because it doesn’t fit the Zeitgeist. To condemn such unpalatable Laws as archaic and barbaric is to do more than “tickle ears” — it’s to reject God’s righteous Judgement. I despair of the “Christian” leaders who rail against Islam for stoning women to death for adultery or playing the harlot before marriage, when the God Jesus called ‘Father’ mandated it for His people Israel! Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot…

Too many who profess Christ want to make God a laid-back modern guy, who’s fine with our sin and who’ll always go along with the spirit of the age. …And then they wonder why so many Western churches are emptying and irrelevant, and the culture gets ever worse. We are in times of great lawlessness. It has never been more important to study God’s righteous Law.

David Reynolds August 3, 2013 at 4:01 pm

Obviously, they failed in their date-set. This is why they sent out an apology letter that I got. The funny math thing just doesn’t work. And this line of thinking completely ignored the imagery we have in the ancient Jewish wedding traditions Jesus was fond of referencing with respect to Last Days. The bride is hidden away for a week, not 3.5 days. Daniel’s 70th week is a week, not 3.5. No where in scripture is a grouping referred to as a week, whether a literal 7-day week or a week of years or what have you ever referred to as meaning 3.5.

Revelation 11, 12 tells us exactly how far into Daniel’s 70th week we are in, and how far we have to go. Btw, there is a Mid Trib Revelation 12 sign in the heavens that does occur exactly on Feast of Trumpets 2017, which would put the 2nd Coming 1260 days later (and the Rapture 1260 or better, before that date. Nothing says the Time of Jacob’s Trouble must commence immediately after the Rapture.

Paul December 6, 2012 at 10:13 am

Wow!

Bryan, I think you must now hold the title of longest post on this site! 🙂

Thanks for spending the time to explain all that — it must have taken you ages to write, and I appreciate it. It was indeed very interesting, and now I have to chew it over properly.

I must say that it sounds right: I first heard something similar in a video by a guy called Jim Staley which I found on the Face Like The Sun website. I remember though, that I wasn’t too happy with the way he handled Scripture at the time, so I sort-of forgot about it. …But as you say, it transforms certain passages in the Scriptures, if one accepts that the “invisible” greater part of ethnic Israel is being gathered.

What then does this mean? That there are a vast multitude of people amongst the Gentile nations who are, unbeknownst to them, ethnic Israelites? People who believe themselves to be Gentiles, and who live like Gentiles, yet who are in fact the descendants of the northern tribes? …And that they too will be regathered to the land — that there will be an even wider regathering before Messiah comes? That would cast in a new light all the Gentile believers who have a real heart for the Land, but if that’s the case, then I guess His return is a while away yet — since I’d imagine they would first have to be declared eligible to make aliyah and then do so.

I’m afraid I didn’t follow your calculations with the 10 generations and the sevenfold penalty, and don’t arrive at 2009-2028. Judgement of the northern kingdom took place in around 722 B.C. A generation of 70 years would mean that 10 generations would indeed be 700 years — but the sevenfold penalty would be 7 × 700 = 4900 years, which would mean that we’re still a couple of thousand years or so away from the return of Jesus! One would need a generation to be around 40 years for a date closer to ours. If G is the number of years in a generation, then an approximation of the year Y in which Christ would return would be given by Y = -722 + (7 × 10 × G), which simplifies to Y = 70 × G – 722.

So, if G = 40, then Y = 70 × 40 – 722 = 2800 – 722 = 2078, which is a good few years away! However, I understand that prophetic years were 360 days. If that’s the case then the 7 times 10 generations would be measured in 360-day-years, rather than our 365.25-day-years (the .25 is an approximation to account for the extra day in February every four years). So one prophetic year is approximately equal to 360/365.25 = 0.9856 of our own years. Therefore, if prophetic years are used, then our calculation for Y becomes Y = -722 + (7 × 10 × G) × 0.9856 = (70 × 0.9856 × G) – 722 = 68.994 × G – 722.

Hence, using G = 40 in Y = 68.994 × G – 722 gives Y = (68.994 × 40) – 722 = 2759.75 – 722 = 2037.75.

So, according to my (very) rough calculations, Jesus should be showing up around twenty-five years from now, in the autumn of 2037! (So someone who was born a year or two before Jerusalem was recaptured in 1967 would, after living a Psalm 90 life of between 70 and 80 years, see Christ’s return.)

Of course, I don’t take my calculation seriously, since the start date is not absolutely certain, and I haven’t accounted for other factors such as calendar alterations and the exceptions to the leap-year rule (nor even made any correction to account for the fact that there was no year 0 B.C./A.D.). This does also seem to be a late date for The Second Coming, when compared with the dates given by most prophecy teachers. (With the possible exception of Walid Shoebat & Joel Richardson, whom I’ve heard — at least I think it was them — suggesting a date of somewhere in the 2030’s.)

…But if the condition for His return is that not only the Jews as currently known (i.e. the tribe of Judah plus a number of stragglers from the other tribes) must be regathered, but that also Israel (i.e. the northern kingdom — the bulk of the House of Jacob) must return to the land, then clearly God has yet to arrange this. Certainly, when I read that God will seal twelve thousand righteous Israelites from each of the twelve tribes, Israel as currently incarnated is really not going to cut it! (Particularly when one reads the description of them at the start of Revelation 14!) …So maybe Christ’s return is indeed a few years away, yet!

Anyway, I’d better go…

God bless,

Paul.

David Reynolds August 3, 2013 at 3:53 pm

Ezekiel’s temple is yet to come. Zech 6:12 says Jesus will build that one. Zech 8 describes a temple yet to come and the young men are described to be strong for the work of the temple yet to be built. The 3rd temple was desecrated. Perhaps even laid waste with all the buildings and cities leveled by the end of Daniel’s 70th week.

Bryan December 2, 2012 at 9:56 am

As for the famous “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” Let’s read it in context.

Matthew 24:35 “HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY, but my words shall not pass away.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of THAT day (heaven and earth passing away) and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

We can see clearly that He is speaking about the day heaven and earth pass away, especially since the Greek word ekeines is used which means specifically “that distinct one” or “that” to specify a certain thing. For example “that house” or “that street.” He then picks back up on the description of the Second Coming in the next verse.

Matthew 24:37 “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Clearly distinctions in the days He is referring to. So therefore, the day that no man knows the day or hour of is the day of the heavens passing away and a New Earth not the day He returns. He says in Revelation 3:3 “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and
repent.IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I will come on thee as a
thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.” Only if you are not watching will you not know when He returns. Thus like “a thief in the night.”

1 Thessalonians 5:4 “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

Matthew 24:43 “But know this, that if the goodman of the house HAD KNOWN IN WHAT WATCH THE THIEF WOULD COME, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”

Notice He says that if the owner knew what time the thief was coming instead of only knowing because the thief actually came. So He is spelling it out in clear detail that we will know the day of His return if we watch. With that said, September 1st 2016 from (August 31st evening to September 1 evening) seems like the most likely date of all dates. All signs line up perfectly and will never do so again.

David Reynolds August 3, 2013 at 3:46 pm

Fail.

New Heavens and New Earth: Before the Millennium or After?

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